I was re-reading the comments on the PSSA Post (read it here) and commenting across as many as I could. As my comment went on and on, I figured I might as well make a post of it.
I also realized that in the absence of anything better, I've become a default advocate of the PSSA test. Read on to learn why.
Thanks to everyone who commented, I think it was a very good discussion and hopefully there will be some more. I'm quite certain I've got enough fodder down there for everyone to set me straight on one topic or another;-) Enjoy!
Grades/Honor Roll
An A today is what a C would have been in past years - the student met the minimum requirements.
Why? Because parents have argued for their kids and said he did everything you asked - A. Path of least resistance, give the A.
This to me explains why half the school is on honor roll.
How do they meet these requirements? open book tests, re-tests, extra work, whatever it takes to get kids moving on. I'm not kidding this is all taking place in Shafer this year.
PSSA Tests What?
Let's remember, the PSSA is not memorizing facts and dates. It is testing fundamental, building block skills. Math testing is not about memorization. The standards, right or wrong, are what students at that grade level should know. As I posted earlier, not a bell curve situation, all students are expected to be at least basic and none are to be left behind in below basic.
No one can think critically if their base understanding of math is non-existant. Nor can you do so if your reading comprehension lacks. Finally, you can hardly present your thoughts if you can't articulate them in writing.
Math, Science, and English are being tested. Fundamental skills are being tested. Does this test higher level thinking, no, but I don't expect that to take place if these skills are not in place.
Why Compare Scores?
PSSA tests the school based on testing all students in the school using the same test.
It is the only measurement tool to do this.
As a result it is all we have to compare fairly regardless of school size or location within PA.
I don't buy the notion that socio-economic and demographic impacts need to be considered.
Shafer may have 12% lunch program, but I also know that in 5th grade (tested 4th grade last year) there were ten kids out of 99 in gifted. Shafer had more students in gifted than Lower and Bushkill combined last year.
It may be a statistical outcome, maybe even a factor (I won't disagree that money impacts opportunities), but I won't use it as the only factor and write off outcomes because of it.
Who Cares?
I do. For the reason noted above coupled with the huge investment made in the schools by the taxpayers, we ought to be getting a good return for the money we are paying and I think these scores indicate improvement is needed.
How to Improve?
I think it was Chris who wrote we teach more to the test each year and scores don't show much improvement - how can that be? (my summary).
I think this is actually simple. Instead of fixing the problem the right way, we've opted to take a short-cut. In essence, we've said there is nothing wrong with our curriculum, our course offerings, our learning time, our teaching methods, or our teachers - the problem must be the kids.
So we invested in helping kids take the test. They need to understand test-taking.
Same results.
So we invested more time and some money to make the kids want to take the test and do well. They needed to care about the test. We have parties, encourage attendance, tell them to eat well and get a good night's sleep.
Same results.
Then we deduct it isn't all the kids, obviously many now know how to take the test, they are ready and willing to take it, so it must be individual kids who are failing us.
Therefore, we will buy an assessment tool, figure out where on the test they are
failing - and teach to it. We will remediate the child.
In doing so, we've not fixed a single flaw that provided the poor result in the first place. We are doomed to re-produce it time and again in other students.
Areas that Need Consideration
Teachers. We now have a 'generation' of teachers who only know teaching based on the PSSA test. These teachers know if the kids meet standards and move on they have done their job.
The NASD needs to change the emphasis from PSSA scores to learning. Fundamentals first, higher order second.
We need to create an environment wherein we try to bring out the full potential in all students, not simply get them each to a base standard.
Grading. We need to go back to making an "A" exceptional and I have no problem with a bell curve in this regard, but I'm certain it will upset most parents. A "C" should indicate one met the basics, "B" that one exceeded those basics, "D" that one grasped much but not all, and "F" one doesn't get it.
Scheduling. We need to get rid of block scheduling. I don't know if there is anything more detrimental to learning math than this manner of scheduling. It works against other subjects as well.
I'm sure there are many other areas of possible improvement and one have to do with purchasing another system to help fix a child who is below basic. We need to fix the system that is in place that produced the below basic child.
Conclusion
We are paying too much money and not getting an acceptable return. We need to stop seeking the quick fix and address some big issues.
PSSA's are not the problem. They are simply the test scores of our students that reflect our schools' ability to instill fundamental skills and allow us to compare our schools' ability to that of others.
What is wrong, is taking the approach that everything we are doing is right and the kids are somehow flawed. This has been the Administration and Board's answer to test scores that indicate we are not in the top-tier of schools locally, but instead are mid-pack.
24 comments:
Ross---to express the following:
Shafer may have 12% lunch program, but I also know that in 5th grade (tested 4th grade last year) there were ten kids out of 99 in gifted. Shafer had more students in gifted than Lower and Bushkill combined last year.
says to me that you don't grasp the meaning of gifted---
---gifted is not an opportunity based achievement or studied skill---you are either born with it or not,in other words you can't "teach" an IQ but you can "teach" how to learn and how to apply what you have learned---furthermore there will be equally dispersed gifted kids throughout society, regardless of socio-economic levels, it is a matter of whether they will be discovered and nurtured--
in your last post reg PSSA's I stated the EDE stats merely because I thought it was of interest that the lunch assistance % directly reflected Shafers PSSA science testing scores---no excuse just interesting
also the higher % of gifted kids at Shafer reflects a greater willingness to discover these kids---Shafer refers more kids to the gifted testing than does BES or LNES----doubtful we have more gifted kids just more identified gifted kids---truthfully I remember a stat at a board meeting discussing gifted where Shafer and Lower Naz had the same % of gifted, about 3.5% per total population (not by grade) whereas Bushkill's was approx 1.8% at the time---
On another note, I firmly believe more so than an All Day K program in NASD we need a head start preschool type program to ready kids for the educational system---where both discipline and learning skills are stressed, something that most day cares are lacking... but that is just my opinion :)
some back up for my statements taken from a gifted education website (Hoagies):
Giftedness is not elitist. It cuts across all socio-economic, ethnic and national groups (Dickinson, 1970). In every culture, there are developmentally advanced children who have greater abstract reasoning and develop at a faster rate than their age peers. Though the percentage of gifted students among the upper classes may be higher, a much greater number of gifted children come from the lower classes, because the poor far outnumber the rich (Zigler & Farber, 1985). Therefore, when provisions are denied to the gifted on the basis that they are "elitist," it is the poor who suffer the most. The rich have other options.
My experience so far has only been at Bushkill, but from what I have seen I think some of your post is way off. I believe the new standards report card is all about accountability. At Bushkill all of the grade levels get the same tests which correspond directly to the standards on the report card. There is no curve grading or individual teacher bias. I was told by administration that in years past it was hard to fail students, but now with the standard report card you can clearly see if a student has not performed adequately, which makes it easier for them to hold students back if needed.
I agree that the PSSA's are a good overall comparison between schools, but they should not be the only thing a school basis it's curriculum on. Lets face it, they are not authentic tests. As was stated in the other post, after college people rarely take tests. Should the school waste time teaching kids to take the test? In an ideal world no, but if if students know the material why should their score suffer because they don't have the testing skills they need. I have heard some colleges are asking for these scores - disturbing but I don't want my child's college chances limited because they don't have these test taking skills.
I am not sure why you don't like block scheduling. Large chunks of time are always better than smaller ones, at least at an elementary level.
As far as teachers teaching to the PSSA, they do it because it is required of them. No teachers I have talked to during parent-teacher conferences is pro PSSA. Many do not like the PSSAs at all. Many would much prefer authentic testing. Teachers are required to cover so much material before the PSSA they have no extra time for things they find important.
This is my problem with putting so much importance on the PSSA. Individual schools and boards should be deciding what is important to teach their children, not the state. PSSA's should not be the only judgement of a successful school. School boards and administration need to step up and make decisions about curriculum, not just base it on the PSSAs.
Just my opinion - Based on your comment aren't you agreeing with me that socio-economic doesn't matter? If that is the case then we can throw out the lunch program percents as a reason why Shafer is so far behind Lower and Bushkill in science.
Justc - I'm certain that every teacher in Shafer in each grade does not give the same standardized test for all classes, nor do they only base their grades on tests. Instead they have reports, projects, and homework incorporated.
"Performed adaquately" This is my biggest issue with standards based report cards, they only care if you have met the standard. There is no encouragement to get the best out of each student, only to get each student to the standard.
I agree that the schools should not be based around the PSSAs.
Where we disagree is that you are assuming the kids know the material and are suffering because they don't know how to take the test. I think our scores are down because they don't know the material and remediating individuals will not fix the core problem. We are destined to repeat it with other students.
Block scheduling only takes place at the high school and it is not good. Imagine if your student has math first semester 9th grade year. Essentially two to two and a half classes are merged into one classroom block. Instead of learning a small chunk, doing homework that night, reviewing in class, then doing another small chunk, your child is getting 2.5 times the information in one lesson, having to learn it and then getting another 2.5 times the info the next night.
Miss a few days, you are missing a weeks worth of material.
Then after you cram a years worth of math into a semester, you don't have math second semester. Due to scheduling in 10th grade you don't have math 1st, but instead in 2nd semester. Now your student has gone a year without math and the process of cramming starts again.
Not a good system.
Learning in manageable chunks, reinforcing work, and doing it consistently over time is much better. You can't accomplish this with block scheduling.
I wasn't blaming the teachers for the position they were in, only pointing out the situation/environment that has been created as a result.
Your conclusion brings us to the point I made initially, if not the PSSAs, then what/how can we determine our schools' performance level?
As I mentioned, by default we are stuck with this measurement because I've not seen anything else.
Thanks for the comments and have a great week!
How do we gauge our schools?
Very simple, grades, graduation rates, drop out rates, why types of schools the students are getting accepted to after graduation.
Things our parents used way back before standardized tests existed.
Of course, with the grade inflation that is going on, it would be hard to get a grasp on the real numbers.
Knowing a person that was involved in standardized test development (in another state), these tests were originally designed to illustrate if students are on grade level. Meaning, the vast majority of the students should fall in the "Proficient" and "Basic" rankings. Material was placed on the test to determine the number of students that were performing ABOVE grade level, meaning "Advanced", and those falling below grade level learning.
So, if the majority of the class is performing in the "Advanced" category, that means all of those students are above grade level. So, either there are a whole lot of geniuses, or we are teaching ahead of grade level.
So, if one takes the 8th grade scores, how can we have so few scoring advanced, yet have such a disproportionate number of kids on honor roll.
Either the test is flawed, or the grading system is.
I spoke with a science teacher from another school regarding the latest Science PSSA test. His review of it was that it reached all the way back to 4th grade concepts and was doomed to show poor performance. Unless a child remembers every thing taught to them four years ago, they will not do well.
Yet, parents will be in front of teachers and administrators complaining that we need to improve our science PSSA scores. Do we go back and re-teach 4th grade science to them?
Teachers at the MS have incorporated PSSA prep as part of the cirriculum, and students are now graded on it. Is this the direction of the entire district?
We are putting all of our eggs in one basket by putting so much importance on a single test (series) that is given once a year and neglecting the importance of what it done in the rest.
I have yet to hear one question (or post here) about our districts SAT scores. Those matter when it comes to getting into college, and is a number that I personally looked at prior to moving here.
That vast majority of our kids are performing at grade level, as they should be. Some are ahead, some are behind. But, with the competitive nature of society today, everyone wants to say their kid is "advanced", so we pressure our teachers and administrators to get to that level.
With all of the pressures students face today, the PSSA should not be one of them.
First of all, with no disrespect intended, Just My Opinions statistics are virtually worthless. Any researcher knows that statistics taken from 1970 and 1985 would not even be allowed in a research presentation presented to a college professor today. While I will agree that giftedness is not soley restricted to the "elite" the lower class is at a profound disadvantage. Please reread my post under Science scores and PSSA testing. The IQ of a child is pretty much established at birth. Does this mean two average parents cannot produce a high IQ child.....no it doesn't.
However, when you take in consideration all the brain dysfunctions caused by lack of proper prenatal care.....dysfunctions that are irreversible....you are not going to find near as many high achieving children. If it was possible to make every child a genius with an educational program, then NCLB would have validity. It is not possible. Example: Give the PSSA test to Harvard students and ESU students. Where do you think you will find the higher scores? I was a decent student in high school....but I could never grasp math concepts. I even had a tutor. Too many parents today expect their child to be the best....when the child simply does NOT have the inherent ability. You simply cannot take someone with a 95 IQ (slightly below the average of 100) and expect them to score the same as a student with an IQ of 130 (gifted cutoff) Until the PSSA tests stop comparing apples to oranges you do not have valid testing. The best we can hope for from our schools today is that each child is expected to learn to the best of their ability. Challenge them, encourage them....but don't expect a child with enough smarts to be a teacher to also be capable of becoming a brain surgeon or nuclear physiscist. And I mean absolutely no dissrepect to teachers....there are teachers today who would be capable of very advanced degrees, but they chose education. But the simple fact of the matter is not everyone is capable of learning to the same degree.
more simply stated
pssa's can and often do reflect economic status,social opportunities,life experiences, and yes parental input...as well as a school districts ability to teach to the test/prep for the test/gauge the students weaknesses etc etc etc
giftedness does not reflect ANY of the aforementioned
as far as stats my post was a social commentary not a statiscal support equation so no offense taken but hopefully my sentiments have been grasped---if not oh well
Ross
Your analysis was excellant. I certainly agree with you on the matter of block scheduling, it is a detrement to our students in that they do get one semester of math this year and then a second semester in the next term. This sort of thing has been going on for a long time. I had Algebra 1 in ninth grade, Geometry in 10th, Algebra 2 in 11th and Trig and Solid Geometry in 12th. Talk about your lack of continuity. But other then Algebra, a mystery to me, I passed the others because I had a class in the subject every day for a year. They did the same thing to history when I taught. In 8th grade you had American History from Colonial times to the end of the Civil War. In 11th grade the students went from the 1880s to the present, usually the end of World War II or Korea. In 12th grade we covered Problems of Democracy or Government. Bethlehem got rid of Local and State history in 7th grade and went to a thing called Urban Studies, sort of a local government subject.
You are also correct when it comes to the grades for report cards. This is a case of KISS--keep it simple stupid. We have the meaningless report cards because there are parents and administrators who do not want the child to see that they failed. Remember, everybody wins.They also complain that others will tease the child. Rubbish. If you do not want your child to fail sit down with them when they come home and help them. If you can't get them a tutor. The BIGGEST thing you can do for your children is to teach them to read. Reading is the very essence of education and intelligence. Some of us devour books. Others read not for pleasure but to learn what they need to learn. My son is a smart guy with an excellent vocabulary but he does little reading for pleasure. He is more like his grandfathers, both smart men, who read when they needed to learn something. The report cards need to go back to A-F.
Civics and history need to become a part of the curriculum. Our kids do not have a clue when it comes to the history of the nation and how the government works. I cringe when I hear that kids and adults are getting their "news" from the Daly show and the Colbert report. In my day that would have been similar to me saying that I got my news from the Howdy Doody Show and Clarabell the clown.
The reason we have all of this is that schools are all about gimmicks. Instead of educating our kids we look for gimmicks to resolve the problems. Getting a good education is not easy. Reading and critical thinking along with proper grammar and spellng are the base for success.
For those of you advocating pre-k let me tell you that you need to re-think that. Unless mom absolutely, positively needs to work she should be home. I have seen these kids that get tossed out to day care or pre-k. They feel abandoned and I will tell you it will be something kids will carry with them throughout their lives. I believe this foolishness causes bad beavior and makes it a lot easier for kids to do certain things because no adult was there to guide them.
Chris - If you really want civics in the curriculum it needs to go in the PSSAs. Seems to be the only sure way to get the material taught. As far as getting news from the news show - what is wrong with that? That is what it is there for.
There is a difference between day care and pre-K. In a post last year Ross wrote that kindergarten preparedness is a good indicator of how well kids will do in school. This makes sense. It was written in a post regarding all day kindergarten. I believe Nazareth would be much better off offering a pre-K program for a few hours a day than going to an all day kindergarten. If a parent is worried about abandonment issues they should home school their kids.
Like I said earlier, I have kids in elementary, and have never seen block scheduling in upper grades first-hand. I have gone to college and it sounds like block scheduling is very similar to college courses. You take one course per semester, for example math, and you may not have another math course for a few semesters depending on your schedule. It is probably not the best way if you are really focused on PSSAs, because a student may not have seen some of the material on the PSSA recently. It does begin to prepare them for a college schedule.
I would like to talk to Mr. Yanek about the standard report cards. I was told by fifth grade teachers that the standards on the report card were directly tied to tests teachers are giving all of fifth grade at Bushkill. The teachers I talked to were a little upset because they had little sway over a students grades. Some projects they had graded in the past they were no sure if they would use this year because they could not give them a grade that would be reflected on the report card. If this si the way things are going to go it would substantially improve accountability.
From a students standpoint, I can tell you that while some students may care about the PSSA's, most simply do not due to the fact that they dont help us or hurt us in any way concerning our grades. When we do recieve the PSSA's to take, most of us simply want to breeze right through them because they dont mean anything to us. That is why the scores are so bad, not because we cant think or apply learned knowledge, but because most of us could care less about how we score on them.
Nazoman,
Thank you for the student perspective. Your comments are no different than the ones I get from my own MS and HS kids.
These tests have no impact on college acceptance (if that is their planned direction), so they don't put a lot of effort into them.
Those of you that are still at the ES level, yes, your kids may care, but guarantee when they hit MS and HS, it will wear off.
Which leads me to believe that the ones that really care about their kids being "Advanced", are the parents.
I know what it is like for these kids in block scheduling, seeing it first hand in my house. The classes are long and the homework is lengthy. Why worry about a test that doesn't impact your future?
To Justc, yes, block scheduling is a lot like college, but imagine being in college, having all of your classes five days a week and back to back. That is what block scheduling is. Four 90 minute classes in a row five days a week with only a break for lunch and going from one class to another.
I went to college as well, and fully know classes typically meet two or three days a week, so it is not quite the same as block schedules.
I do have to ask, why is it that the students (like Nazoman) have figured out that they need to focus on the real education portion of school and forget about the PSSA, yet most parents cling to it like a life preserver?
On judging schools:
"Very simple, grades, graduation rates, drop out rates, why types of schools the students are getting accepted to after graduation."
And - SAT scores.
We've agreed there is grade inflation and I'd imagine grade inflation means more graduate than ought to.
We could look at SAT scores, but not everyone takes them.
Getting accepted into college doesn't tell us a student is prepared, only that an institution is willing to take money.
Last year during the Community College report by Dr. Scott it was reported, "There are approximately 1,800 students attending NCC from NASD. There was a figure that showed 28.6% of NASD students attend NCC. English I and Bowling I were two of the most highly enrolled classes by NASD students."
Does this tell us our school is preparing students?
The PSSA test is the only one taken by all students in all schools and thereby is the only genuine comparable we have.
On students attitude and parents clinging to the test...see above.
The only means we currently have to measure is the PSSA. If it is the only floatation device in the ocean I'm hanging on!
And the notion that the students don't care is something I've heard from students and educators alike, but this doesn't work for me either.
If students don't care, as they get older, it may explain why scores go down as grade levels go up, but does not explain why some schools STILL consistently finish higher than others?
Their students scores go down, but not nearly as far as others. Year in and year out the order of schools doesn't change too much. Tells me which schools are doing better teaching basics.
Back to the original point - it is time to stop blaming the test and to start looking at our schools and addressing the flaws with long-term solutions, not quick fixes.
"Getting accepted into college doesn't tell us a student is prepared, only that an institution is willing to take money."
Are you kidding me? Are you saying that kids from NASD that got accepted to Ivy League schools only did so because they can afford it? For that matter, any other state or private school?
College admission has become extremely competitive, especially at the higher end schools (of which NASD has sent graduates). I know because have already seen this not only in PA, but throughout the rest of the country.
Why we send so many kids to NCC is unknown. It could be because they didn't have the grades, their parents didn't have the money, or they are taking a more cost effective route by doing some years at community college then moving to a four year school.
As for the Bowling I comment, anyone that has ever gone to college knows you must take a certain number of nonsense electives, this may be the easiest one to get an A in and have fun doing it.
We as parents are responsible completely for the curriculum we got, because we asked for it.
We asked for better scores on PSSAs, so the administration gave us one based on them.
We asked that little Johnny not be allowed to fail (it would hurt his self esteem), so we got grade inflation.
We as the collective parents need to stop beating the PSSA drum, tell the administration to get their act together and allow our teachers to return to teaching core skills.
Most people posting have kids in the elementary school, so need to figure it out soon because it is worse in the MS and HS when it comes to adding PSSA prep as the curriculum.
My point about college was that if you want to go to a school you can by paying.
I'm not saying every school will do that, clearly many won't.
To say a school district is good because it has more students go to college does not mean the school is doing a good job, only that the choice and means are in place for the school's students to go to college.
Let me ask this - if we took the PSSA's away would the quality of education improve, or would we all slip back to simply believing the school is good because good grades are being had?
I personally don't know of any college/university that will simply accept you because you pay. Otherwise, why would kids today be applying (and paying the application fees) to so many schools in the hopes of getting accepted to one or two of them.
As for how we measure schools without PSSA's, how did your parents do that? How were schools measured in the time before PSSA's? Believe it or not, there was a time when these tests DIDN'T exist and our generation managed to survive and thrive.
Maybe Chris Miller can add some color commentary on this as he was a teacher at that time.
The point is, a useless piece of legislation called No Child Left Behind was created. Everyone was concerned that we were falling behind the rest of the world in education, yet, we led the world in innovation, economy and more. Now, the rest of the world is passing us by. Now, we have these "standards" tests that have become more important than teaching the basics, the basics that WE learned and have served us well.
We have become such a competitive society that we are all so busy trying to keep up or surpass the Jones' (in this case Parkland) that we lost sight of what education should be in the quest for a once a year test.
We have also dumbed down the program by allowing grade inflation to occur. As parents, this is where we should really be concerned.
Today, kids are not encouraged to take responsibility for their actions as parents are all to willing to run in with the lawyers if their child even gets a sideways look. Parents have become the problem and the schools are just reacting to that.
If I got a bad grade in school, it was my fault and I was punished. If I got in trouble at school, my parents didn't run in and threaten the admins if I was punished. I got more at home.
Get grading back where it needs to be, get parents out of the teachers and admins faces when their kids do poorly (but get involved and figure out how to help them to improve). Take an active role in your childs educations and make them accountable for both their successes and failures.
Then, we will start to see improvements.
Sorry Ross, but I don't agree with you at all on this topic. Nazoranter....you hit the nail on the head!
Do you know of anyone that wanted to go to college, had the money to do it, and couldn't get accepted anywhere?
I'm not saying put the check out with no application and you're in, but clearly some schools are more lenient than others when it comes to qualifications - and they should be. Not everyone is going to be Ivy League caliber nor do they need to be.
My point is you can't judge how good the district is based on % going to college.
"Believe it or not, there was a time when these tests DIDN'T exist and our generation managed to survive and thrive."
When it didn't exist students did well because they were taught to live up to their individual potential.
Today our schools only care that you meet the minimum standard. This is the school's fault, not the test. The test is a measurement. Nothing more, nothing less. We've chosen to take short-cuts to fix short-comings in our district and I think we are paying the price educationally.
"As for how we measure schools without PSSA's, how did your parents do that? How were schools measured in the time before PSSA's? "
I don't think they were. Not here at least. We didn't have a transient population that shopped for them. And when your kids were in the school you didn't have to question the education because everyone wasn't rolling in A's and sitting on honor roll.
The knock at Nazareth, at least when I went through, was that the teachers graded too hard and it hurt kids when applying for college. They'd have good SATs, but not a high enough GPA.
Most, nearly all, who were there at that time are retired.
As NazoRanter says there are a bunch of problems, and it seems we agree on many of them, but I do think there needs to be accountability for the quality of education at all times.
This is especially true when we are getting hit with massive annual tax increases.
The only way I can see that provides that accountability right now is the results of the PSSA.
Not popular, I know.
"My point is you can't judge how good the district is based on % going to college."
I agree with you 100% on that statement. But my main point is you can't judge how good a district is based on PSSA scores. There are far too many variables, which NCLB does not take into consideration.
And, yes, students today can buy their way into college.......certainly not a top rate school but some colleges will accept any students who will come up with the cash. Often times this is done by desperate parents who simply want to claim their "johnny"is going to college. Usually a mute point becuase if the kid isn't going to work in high school, he certainly isn't going to apply himself in college. I thoroughly agree with you in that Nazareth has certainly changed over the years. 20 years ago you never saw the grade inflation and the honor roll that Nazareth produces today. Many teachers then would fail students, even though they had high test scores, simply becuase they didn't do homework. The trend today (just read about the recent decision at Easton Middle School)is to not even have teachers check homework. A much more accurate predictor of school success would be to publish statistics on how many of these kids who went to college actually graduated. Many people will knock NCACC and claim "anyone can get in." And basically that's true. But a poor student who trys to get into one of the popular programs doesn't stand a chance. Personally, with our economy today, I think it is foolish of parents who are on a limited budget to not start their kids education at NCACC and then move on a to a state school, especially if they are interested in pursuing a degree in education. As a teacher myself, I have seen younger teachers struggling to make their school loan payments becuase they chose to go to Moravian. Now if parents are independently wealthy, that's fine. But a starting teacher from Princeton, Moravian, Gettysburg College, to name a few, is going to get the exact same starting salary as a teacher who spent two years at NCACC and two years at ESU. Honestly Ross, I think you make a lot of good points. I just don't agree that PSSA helps out anyone or anything. The students that have the desire to succeed will.....those that don't....won't. And, as I have previously stated, the PSSA and NCLB have far to many variables to make them a viable measure of school progress.
Another thing I totally agree with is the issue of accountability by the schools. But, believe me, you'll never find that in Nazareth....not with the current administration and their handpicked cronies and a spineless schoolboard. Lower class sizes in primary grades doesn't hold a candle to a swimming pool. Qualified teaching candidates are passed over for someone the administration "thinks" will give us a good football team.....and are then hired at top of the scale salaries when they have dubious background. Forget the "arts" in Nazareth. The special area teachers are spread so thin that students are deprived of a weekly phys ed, music and art class. But let's build a new road....that's cool....a gigantic impressive campus and athletic complex, but classroom spending is kept to a minimum and programs for the "average" students are cut back or eliminated. Nazareth needs to stop incurring debt building an empire for the current super and start concentrating on accountability and true learning in the classroom.....not just instructing teachers to "teach to the test." We don't need PSSA tests to hold the district accountable......we need parents to show their support for the things our school really needs.
Unfortunately, there are very few people in Nazareth who even make an attempt to change the current monarchy....they look at it as hopeless. And that is a sad state of the district in Nazareth!
Ross, you do make a concerted effort to point out the deficiencies of this district, as do Chris Miller and some of the other posters on here. You also make constructive suggestions for ways to improve the district. You try!!! And that's at least a step forward in the right direction. Thank you.
Ross
I agree with NazoRanter in that colleges do not take you just for the money. Keep in mind that colleges and universities are all about diversity and affirmative action.
Standardized testing was not something I was involved in. I never monitored such a test. I do remember taking the Iowa Basic tests when I was a kid
It was the report card that was the basis of a rating system and it was the student's responsibility to get his grades up by doing things such a studying, homework, pass tests, complete projects, get into honors or advanced placement classes, and participate in class. I used homework, tests, term papers, and class participation. Class participation is tough to do because some kids are very quiet, you do not penalize them for that. If they score well on tests, homework and papers, the participation grade should be high. I explained my grading to kids when then first entered the class room.
Along with SAT scores there are also Merit Scholarships that can me looked at in a district--is the number of said scholars going up or down.
Parents play a major role. I can still remember my mom sitting me on the couch and having me do my reading assignment when I came home. She really inspired my interest in reading.
As to pre-k and all that other nonsense, I think this will be the ruination of our kids. They want to be with their parents and don't tell me it is to socialize them. Kids will socialize. They do not need day care, pre-k or extended all day kindergarten. I would also suggest two additional things. First sent the boys to school at a later age. Second, set schools up based on sex. I believe it will stop the distractions and get us back to the primary job of educationg our kids. And certainly home schooling should be considered by all parents.
By the way, all that pre-k and all day kindergarten is a pay back to the union--need to hire more teaches and additional staff.
oh Chris paaalllhheeeezzzze!
wake up it's 2000+....in your day yes moms stayed at home but it is a different world and wishing it could be how it was doesn't make it so....
with that said i did and do stay home with my kids but refuse to penalize the children whose moms don't stay home by not providng opportunities to replicate what they should have, early learning situations that stress discipline, focus, respect and fun...
face how it is and come up with solutions that work for our districts kids rather than ranting about how it used to be and should be...be an advocate for changes that work in this millenia rather than being mitered in how much better the good old days were...but that's just my opinion
In regards to the comments about colleges operating on a "pay to play" system, that is simply wrong. If you look at the best schools, and analyze the average SAT scores and class rank of the students, you will see the majority are within the top 5% of their class. Ross, I'd be interested in hearing what college you attended, why you chose it, and how your education did or did not prepare you for the experience. Sounds like a bit of sour grapes here.
This discussion is long on citing problems (easy and simplistic) and less focused on actual solutions (much more challenging and complex) that would actually make a difference.
justmyopinion 10:39AM
I am a historian and one of the things I learned and cite is that if we can learn from the past. We are constantly looking forward and sometimes that is a good thing but at other times we might want to look back and see how something was handled in the past. We have kids in day care, going to pre school and pre-k. Why is that going on? Simply to make it easier for mommy to go off to work in order to maintain a life style that I bet a lot of people wish they were out of at this time. I am not sayng that mom should stay home forever. I do, however, believe that we and our children would be better if mom stayed home during the formative years of the children. We know that some and maybe even most little kids do not like to be left. Have you ever seen kids dropped of by mothers? They are not happy little tykes. Yes they do get use to it but that does not make it right. I will also go so far as to say that mom's working make men less aggressive wheh it comes to looking for a better job, asking for a promotion or a raise. Are you setting yourself up with this? What if one of the two cannot ever work again,say at the of 30? If women did not work, would men be making more money? I think they would and they might make a liveable wage that would allow him to supprot the family. Keep in mind this could also be a she if the situation warranted it. I believe women should be as educated as any guy just in case.But being a mom is important and it is the most important and difficult job on the face of the earth.
As for change. That word gets bantered around all the time. One of the things my old school district was known for was change. Didn't make a difference whether it was good change or bad change. The idea was to look like something important was going on to provide a better education. Two wonderful changes were the ITA or initial teaching alphabet that in the long run produced kids who could not spell. My favorite was the NEW MATH that no one understood and thus parents coud not help their kids with their homework. We got rid of geography and combined it with history that in turn became social studies. Civics was tossed out the window and the baby went with it. It was altered even further when we went to world cultures. End result, stumps were smarter then out kids when it came to history and government.
For some reason we have come to believe this thing we call change is some how forward looking yet we are getting worse and dumber as we move in that direction. If we glanced back we might find a change for the better.
Chris Miller.......I'm seeing a huge contradictiction here. You were a vigorius supporter of mccain and Palin. Tell me what time she spends with her kids???
anonymous 8:49PM
It seems to me that I did see the Governor with her kids and there were reports that dad had quit his job and was taking care of the kids. Not as good as mom but better then no parent close to home.
I also stated that I was okay with a mom who went to work after the formative years. That would be when the child goes to school full time and I think that if we checked it we would find a lot of moms getting home from work around the time of te children.
Certainly Governor Palin moved into a job that I believe allows her to spend time with her older children. The child with Downs Syndrom, I belive his name is Trig, probably has someone assisting with his care though I don't recall anyone talking about a nanny or nurse.
I realize that I was putting forth an idealiztic posiion with my post. It may be old fashion but I do wish that we could get back to that time. While we have made great strides in technology our culture, morals and values have fallen into a pit. I do not believe to many people are really happy when they contemplate the path we have taken and the position we are in. Ask yourself this question. Are you as happy today as you were at Christmas time when you were a kid. It seems that the most blessed season of the year comes and goes on a blast of cold win. I feel sorry for the kids who will not enjoy the long drawn out time of Christmas past. It was a time of anxious participation. A time when for weeks there was indeed the smell of cookies being baked in all the houses. There was a Christmas party at school and the mom'w were there to help. Everybody was wearing a smile. You practiced your "Christmas piece" as my dear great aunts called it, for Christmas eve at church and those aunts showed up for church to see you. And above all, you were happy and secure sure that all was going to be okay in your world. What a great time. And that feeling went on throughout the year.
But times have changed, the question is did they change for the better. In some areas they did, in others not so much.
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