The Morning Call has an article on the recent Borough Council decision to close the skate park for the day if the rules are being violated (read it here).
Since the skate park opened there have been complaints about garbage on the ground, excessive and loud foul language, underage smoking, and the use of bikes on the skate equipment. I’m not sure what part of the rules are considered excessive and I can’t speak the extent to which the rules are actually being violated as I don’t visit the skate park. So much of this to me is very much a case of he said, she said.
The skate park is free and there is no specific manager of the skate park as the park manager is primarily responsible for the pool, which does charge admission.
The skate park was selected over other potential public recreation areas. The argument at the time was the providing a skate park would lessen the problems around town with skateboarders using private property to skate. Property owners complained that skaters could damage their property, had no right to be on their private property, and feared legal action if they hurt themselves while on their property.
Now, some council members feel that having provided this park, the skaters should be respectful of the rules governing the use of it. Following repeated attempts to have them clean up after themselves, exercise some better judgment in their use of language, not smoke under the age of 18, and to limit the use of the park to skateboards the Council has decided that the police can close the park if they see a violation. The intent is to have the skaters self-govern.
From the article:
"The rules of the skate park are a joke," said councilman Jack Herbst, who helped build the park in 2007 and cast the sole dissenting vote. "Because of a few kids, you're going to shut it down for the day? You're just going to keep closing the park, closing the park, closing the park."
And also:
For now, the skaters are safe: The zero-tolerance policy won't go into effect until the borough posts a sign listing the rule, which will take a few weeks. But Herbst's wife, Karen, said her son's friends have already begun making protest plans through Facebook.
If the borough is looking to cut down on trouble, she said, well…
"They're going to have what they don't want," she said. "They're going to have riots."
It does appear there is a need for management. Maybe the skate park ought to operate along the lines of the pool – charge admission and use the money to pay for a manager. The manager can then throw people out as needed and keep it a safe, clean environment.
As far as smoking, I’d ban it from the entire park.
What do you think?
27 comments:
That is BS!! I am a 35 year old skateboarder who uses the park every week for exercise and recreation. I clean up whatever trash I find. I do my best to respect the park, because I appreciate it. But city council closing the park is just stupid. These are KIDS we are dealing with. Do you think they aren't going to smoke and swear elsewhere? City council and Nazareth residents should appreciate that the trash is in the skatepark and not there front yards or in front of their churches. At least it's contained and can be cleaned up very easily. These old farts should worry about something of much more importance in the city. Seems like when you get old there is nothing better to do than bitch. I guess its hard for city council members to remember what it was like to be a kid. Blame the Parents for not raising respectful children, NOT THE SKATEPARK.
Old school skate punk in Nazo.
Wow, so many ways to go here...
There's littering, foul language, underage smoking, and the occasional skateboarder on my street all the time --- can we have it shut down please?
A riot if the skate park is closed??? Was that a prediction, promise, or threat? I'm stunned!
Well let's see, if the young cherubs that thought they had the right to skateboard in private driveways a few years ago are now young adults... sure I guess they could riot. Does anybody have the URL for the Facebook page so we can see if Mom's riot comment is being embraced or not?
Seriously... I expect to hear that she was misquoted or taken out of context or something. And I'm all for individual rule breakers getting tossed as opposed to the entire group.
I'm sure the enforcement of the rules was discussed back when this park was planned... right?
I'm with "Chris" on this one. Too much clamping down for something not all kids are guilty of. Are there any better ways to encourage civility in teens?
And who built a skatepark that does not allow bikes??
During one of the first warm days of the spring we took our then 10 month old daughter to the swings and play area at the park. We haven't been back since. The language that came from the skate park was startling. I, myself, talk like a sailor most of the time. But it was jarring to hear it while trying to enjoy time with my family.
I'm all for a skate park. And I really don't care if they swear, smoke, or anything else at the skate park. But I guess I never really realized how close the skate park is to the family area. At the time that the skate park was being considered I didn't have kids so the issue wasn't on my radar and didn't pay attention to where they were building it. But that thing is just in the wrong location.
Maybe this will become less of an issue once the Bethlehem park opens which I hear is going to be much better than the one in Nazareth.
Let's follow the councils line of reasoning.
The other day, saw two kids riding bikes up 191. One kid simply tossed his cup to the side of the road, so therefore we must ban kids from riding bikes anywhere in the borough.
Let's pick any event in the borough, I ALWAYS hear language that would make a sailor blush, so therefore we need to ban ANY event where kids will congregate.
I drive by the HS and MS and see kids that are clearly under 18 smoking, so therefore we need to ban kids from the HS and MS.
Does all of this sound outrageous? Sure does, but every reason that they want to shut down the skate park is evident in every other aspect of life in Nazareth, and usually committed by kids that do not appear to be skaters.
I just wanted to point out how STUPID this is. Clearly someone has a major dislike of the "skater" generation and is only looking for a reason to punish them.
I am not at all stunned or even surprised about the "prediction, promise or threat" of a riot. It is only typical of that woman's mentality. Get what you want or throw a tantrum, threaten and bully. Seems to be what she does best. What a role model!
I do agree with Chris that it is the parent's fault for raising disrespectful children, and it's a shame that the park has to be shut down for a few. But, maybe it's a good idea. And maybe, just maybe the skaters should be angry with their peers for trashing the place and not at Borough Council for making rules, or our Police Officers for enforcing them.
And maybe it's time they learn about the lesson on "consequences for your actions". They're obviously not getting it from their parents. They need to get it from someone!
Cheapest & fairest solution may be to post fines for littering, bikes, etc and then install a camera. Of course the camera itself would be a target but I think if it's mounted high enough it would be difficult to vandalize without showing up on the recording.
And BTW, I can't believe I forgot to mention this in my last post. About 3 weeks ago a piece of litter in my driveway was actually a skateboard. Battered, with the wheels removed, abandoned as scrap that somebody else (me) could dispose of.
here are some things I picked up on..
1. Does the borough really think that children under 18 are going to really govern themselves? Are you kidding me? That's so much freedom for them to trash in such a little area.
2. Closing the park for a day is an idiotic idea. This exactly like trying to train a dog or a cat. If you close it for the day, the kids are just going to stop whatever that was for the moment, wait for the park to reopen and then do it all over again as many times as they want. If you want to strike authority into their minds you need to take more action of what you made for them.
3. Paying admission and for some idiot to be a 'manager' is another stupid move. Clearly those on the council and within the borough don't get the idea that if the park is now charging a fee, kids will just go wreck private property again. Where do you think 12-18 year old children are gonna get money to go? What town idiot will you get to manage the park?
Speaking as someone who is a little older, yet understands the logic of the skateboarders, you as a borough need to show your power. You're letting them walk all over you.
Kyle, so what are your recommendations? How should power be asserted?
Here's how it's done in San Diego, follow the link below for the whole news story:
Fingerprints Now Required At Poway Skate Park
I knew this Post would draw lots of comments.
Couple of my comments:
How do so many kids get away with smoking? If my kids ever smoked I would HOPE they would get caught and fined so i could make them pay for it. Fining the the kids would help make the parents accountable for their kids actions. There is WAY too much underage smoking in this community. I even see them at 7-11 hanging outside smoking have said something to them. (NOte: i know for sure they are not directly buying them from 7-11 I know for a fact that they card..they card my 40 year old girlfriend...)
A camera sounds like a good idea, or how about just a plain clothes officer randomly showing up and fining the ones smoking, littering and cussing. Put the sign up and follow up with random inspections. I would hope that the Police Chief already has an undercover officer down around that area, I would guess at ANY day there are some type of drugs in some of the kids pockets.
I like the idea skate park and would like to take my boy there some day. I know if I was there, and I heard bad language, as anywhere, i would speak up and make them shut their potty mouths and embarass the heck out of them.
The only 3 solutions, 1) let it run as is and ignore the problems until something bad happens. 2) Install a camera 3) random inspections by an undercover officer.
I for one am glad we have a skate park. Since it's opened, we no longer see kids trying to skate off our porch. We had such a problem! And even though we're relatively young ourselves (39 is still young, right??), the attitude we got from these kids when we told them they couldn't skate off of OUR porch was just so sour. Then we had to deal with garbage like a flaming bag of dog poo and snow balls pelted on our front windows.
Indeed, it is more likely than not the result of ineffective parenting, but I have seen kids from good homes and loving families act out.
Thanks to Wayne for posting the article. Jimbob has some great solutions, too. Anyone else have any ideas on how to best address these issues?
Everyone seems to think these problems are only at the skate park. News flash, they are there, but also in every other location that kids hang out at.
It needs to be addressed borough wide, not just at the skate park.
So I have to ask, why just there? What about kids that litter, curse and smoke at other locations? Do they get a free pass because they aren't skater? Or is everyone just happy because these kids aren't skating on or around their property?
At the Nazareth Carnival, there was plenty of litter, underage smoking, and foul mouthed kids, yet I didn't see a single one of them carrying a skateboard. Where is all of the outrage at that?
I am pushing 50, and I have never seen a community go after a group of kids the way this one does with skaters.
The more you push on this one group, the more they will push back. Spread it across the entire population, there will be less resistance.
But maybe it is just better that we lock all the kids inside and only let them play with their digital friends on the internet. There is NO chance they could get in trouble there.
How about requiring an ID card and membership for use, just like for the pool. Deal with the kids who are breaking the rules. You shouldn't punish everyone for the actions of a few. Thereare security cameras that can be installed that are tamper proof. If laws are being broken then deal with it. As far as a parent saying tere would be a "riot" that is outrageous. That mind set by parents today is why we have such disrespect for authority. The language that they use no matter who is around is unbelieveable. There should be more respect for others, especially when there are parents trying to use the park facilities with young children. But, that needs to be taught at home also.
How about requiring an ID card and membership for use, just like for the pool. Deal with the kids who are breaking the rules. You shouldn't punish everyone for the actions of a few. Thereare security cameras that can be installed that are tamper proof. If laws are being broken then deal with it. As far as a parent saying tere would be a "riot" that is outrageous. That mind set by parents today is why we have such disrespect for authority. The language that they use no matter who is around is unbelieveable. There should be more respect for others, especially when there are parents trying to use the park facilities with young children. But, that needs to be taught at home also.
1. Wayne, the camera idea is lame and ridiculous. The camera will be smashed or vandalized costing the tax payers more.
2. The idea of a FREE Public Skatepark should not cost anyone a dime. No memberships and fees, this will not work for the majority and will result in more kids ruining your curbs, driveways, sidewalks, businesses, and churches.
3. Small town mentality. Have the cops bust kids for skating and smoking outside at the park, real genius. I for one would like my police tax dollars spent elsewhere, like investigating all the robberies here in Nazo lately.
4. Leave the kids alone, there's no need for to pay a manager to babysit. Make a public works employee walk through the park once a week to pick up trash. IS it that hard PEOPLE???
5. You can't stop smoking or potty mouths, its life get over it. and This isn't communist china, its NAZARETH, PA USA. Most of the Nascar and football fans here do worse than these kids ever will.
6. Go to the legion hall or holy family club and see how many drunks drive home everyday, at all times of the day! I would be much more concerned with this problem than a couple of potty mouth kids in the park.
and one last suggestion, city council can easily put together a volunteer group of a few people that walk through all the nazo parks picking up trash once a week. Trash is not just in the skatepark, there are millions of cigarette butts on Main and Broad Sts.
It's a community people, start acting like one.
Chris,
I'm over here shaking my head in disbelief.
The crux of your post is that someone else needs to pick up after them and just ignore everything else...
I have a little experience with security cameras & it's not rocket science. The fines could defray the cost.
BTW - I am halfway on your side... don't close the park and don't charge an entrance fee.
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Jimbob,
You may be able to embarrass one of them if they're alone because mostly they are good kids at heart. But if they are in a "pack" no one wants to be the 1st one to back down from the grown-up. You may start out polite but it can end with you being stood up to, cussed at, and given the bird. They know you can't touch a minor without serious repercussions so provoking you is "fun". Ross knows what I'm talking about, he's seen the pictures.
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Elyssia,
It sounds like we had similar pre-skate park experiences. I encourage everyone to read her post and imagine how you would feel if you were terrorized for simply protecting your property.
So we were so selfish not to let the children play on our porches or go flying within a few feet of our cars and front doors that the boro had to create a park for them. In effect some of them (not all) feel rewarded for bad behavior. And people wonder why bad behavior continues...
I don't think anyone said the only place in town where a piece of garbage or someone swearing or a juvenile is smoking takes place at the skate park, but what was said is that on a regular, consistent basis, and to an excessive extent this is occurring at the skate park, which is adjacent to the family playground equipment and the borough park.
The thinking, is that since we know where, when, and whom it is we ought to do something.
I think any kid should be busted over and over and over again for smoking underage. Doing so not only will save their life, but it will lessen the burden they will undeniably put on our healthcare system, which will cost all of us significantly more money.
I do think it is wrong to close the park on nazareth day until 4:00 p.m. I think everyone who is there that day should have the opportunity to see for themselves if there is a problem or not.
And the arguments that it happens elsewhere so let it go, and there are worse things elsewhere so let it go are flawed.
I think our police have done a much better job throughout the borough with driving infractions. I hope it gets people to slow down and actually stop at stop signs.
And finally, if these kids aren't getting direction at home isn't it the responsibility of the community to give it to them?
If they don't understand dropping the F word in front of 5 or 6 year olds is wrong, shouldn't they be told, and then punished for repeating it? Shouldn't they know that littering is not only wrong, but it is a legal offense that results in a fine?
We can't let these kids be ignorant, that would be a failure as a community.
So yes, I think there should be some enforcement at the skate park if these problems exist. They've been provided exactly what they wanted, show some thanks and respect for it, don't turn around and flip everyone the middle finger who just helped you out.
NOC, I agreed with you comments until you got to the about dropping the F-bomb. I hear plenty of adults dropping around town. Does that make it right? No, but let's be real here.
It is NOT illegal to curse, period.
However, it is illegal to litter (up to a $1000 fine last I looked), and it is illegal to smoke.
You want to stop these two things, enforce those laws and fines to the max.
Wayne is right, security cameras. Mount them high and there is no way to vandalize. That way there is video proof and mommy and daddy will just have to suck it up.
BUT, you will need to do it everywhere. NOC, I know what you are saying about the who, when and where, but I will add the HS and MS to that as well. Go listen to the language and see the number of kids smoking on a daily basis, and they aren't "skaters".
Heck, with the fines, we might even be able to lower taxes.
I didn't intend to mean only enforce at the skate park, I'm open to enforcing littering and underage smoking (and cursing) anywhere.
I only meant to say, you can't argue don't enforce at the park because it happens at other places too.
Regarding profanity, I do believe you can be charged for cursing in public, particularly when it is done with young children nearby.
Does it happen often, obviously not, but it amazes me what people will say in public (any people) and a few of those fines might wake some folks up.
NOC, it just seems to me that the skate park is a lightning rod and people fail to see the broader picture. Probably because of the way these kids dress at times. I was about to say how they act as well, but that behavior is not confined to just them.
True enforcement would lead to a decrease in unsocial behavior. Nobody likes to give their money away, and the pocket book is always a great motivator.
Or perhaps community service?
Force those that litter to spend a full day picking up trash around the borough. Those that smoke to do a day in a cancer ward. Maybe then they will change.
Of course, there is always the Clockwork Orange approach......
I'm also a 35y/o father who enjoys skateboarding at our skatepark. I bring my 6 y/o son from time to time, mostly in the mornings. I see exactly what goes on there — a ton of great people, parents and kids, who enjoy the skatepark and few not so great people who trash it.
The skatepark takes up fraction of the entire acreage of the whole Nazareth Borough Park. Yet the skatepark gets more use/traffic than almost any other area in the park consistently — short of the pool, which is open 2.5 months out of the year. The only time when you won't see skaters taking advantage of a free place to skate is when it's under rain, snow or ice. Use-wise, the skatepark been a huge success!
Given that high amount of traffic (be it skaters, football, baseball or hockey fans) in such a confined location, you will get trash, foul language, smoking, etc. A problem not confined to skaters, I'm sure many readers here have been to a Nazareth football game!
City council obviously has the right to vote and put such a harsh penalty on the skatepark. But, are city council's rules going to make bad kids good - no.
Is there a better alternative to police the few bad kids in the crowd down there? I'm not sure. What is certain is the zero-tollerance rule is not a solution, it's simply a way to avoid dealing with the problem. And to be honest, it sounds a bit childish in and of itself.
Close the park and the kids, adults, and everything else that goes with them, go back to the streets. That is definitely not a solution.
The real problems seem to be location and moderation. Until we solve those issues, we're not going to help anyone — skaters, families, skaters with families, disgruntled adults, etc.
For the most part, skaters police themselves. You cannot skate over trash, so it does get picked up. I've asked kids not to smoke while I was there with my kids, and they respected me without any issue. People curse, and if you slam, its going to happen. So that leaves us with location. More precisely, location within ear and eye-shot of non-skaters.
Short of moving the skate park to another location inside the park and surrounding it with trees, I don't believe we'll find closure on this.
One Last Note:
Tatamy banned skateboarding on the street "since there is a place to do that in Nazareth". Zero-tollerance rules will ban kids from the skatepark. City council is essentially forcing ALL skaters in that area into a catch-22. It doesn't sound like there was much investigation into this "solution". I'm certainly not impressed.
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