I made a post over the weekend regarding the number of administrators and compared Nazareth to Parkland (read it here). One individual commented and another followed up along the same lines. While I didn't follow the connection between the number of administrators and type of student, it did raise the issue of perspective and stereotypes.
If you stereotype you are not open to understanding. Here are the comments (somewhat abbreviated but you can read them all at the link above):
- with all due respect, take a ride over to parkland when school lets out and see the type of kids they have attending there schools (dress/behavior/grades). to compare nazareth to parkland is an absolute insult to parkland high school in my opinion..
- And then take a ride over to NAMS or NAHS at dismissal time ain't see the Columbine Clones getting out of those schools. But lets build the degenerates a skate Park. Great use of our recreation dollar$.
If one really were to drive over to Parkland and watch dismissal from the HS, you wouldn't see any students walking to their homes in town. The building can't be walked to and there is no borough anchoring the district.
At Nazareth you do have students who live in the borough and walk to school. You also have students who take the bus and drive their cars. If you are judging an entire school district on a few students you do yourself a disservice.
To determine that every child who dresses a certain way is a degenerate speaks to the level of understanding and open-mindedness of the commenter, more than it does the quality of the child.
Bernie O'Hare replied to these individuals and encouraged them to take some time to talk to these kids, get to know them. They're not bad kids. I'd venture to say mostly he is right.
You can always find one or two bad apples, heck we have them here. The people who comment and have to attack the individual instead of the idea. People who can't be constructive or try to help, but can only knock and bad mouth. We have people that are so desperate to make a derogatory remark that they think is so clever, that they will post it over, and over, and over again, only to see it deleted each time. Why? I don't know. Does it make every commenter a bad or problematic person? Absolutely not.
People who cause problems don't necessarily dress a certain way, some are business professionals, some are elected officials, some are corporate CEOs.
Last night I was at the Nazareth News Agency and they had an open mic beginning at 7:30. Some of the kids were there earlier than 6, when I arrived, sitting in chairs playing (acoustic guitar). They would have fit into these commenter's description of 'degenerate', but I can assure you they were not. They were talented players, well behaved, and respectful of others.
Fortunately for them Mike at the Nazareth News Agency has given them a place where they can come, be welcomed, and be given an opportunity to show what they can do as well as to share what they know with one another.
It is tough to have a chip on your shoulder when someone does that for you.
I wasn't sure about the Skate Park when it was first proposed. I thought and still do, that the money could probably be used in a way that could benefit more of the population. The more I've thought about it though, the more I've warmed to the idea. We have a pool, movies at the park, the performances at the park, we have a summer recreational program for more traditional sports, we have community parks that provide swings, basketball hoops, and play areas. In short we offer a lot to a lot of people. This would broaden our offerings.
If the Park were done right, we might even be able to use it have a few competitions or exhibitions, either of which could be sponsored/supported by a local group or the borough itself to possibly raise money and at the least to be used to bring attention to the community and park.
Identifying problems is great, but only if you are going to do something about them and not wring your hands and dwell on them. We have many good things as well as some opportunities. Let's hope that sharing these issues will lead us to good solutions and individuals willing to step up and help out.
32 comments:
Older generations always resent the younger ones.
If you spend some time to get to know them, they're mostly good kids. If I see a kid on a skateboard, I'll ask him to show me his moves. If I see kids at Nazareth Hall park, I try and encourage them. They respond. Believe me.
I met a fellow last weekend at Allentown's East Side Youth Center. He spends an entire day every week working wioth the kids. He's not even paid. He told me that if kids have things toi do, they stay out of trouble.
When kids have places to play baseball, football or skate, it's a sign the community cares. Rather than throwing inflammatory names, I'd recommend that the anonymous poster take the time to get to know some kids. He might even learn some things from them.
Fine, keep your heads in the sand.
I am in a better position to know as I have kids in this age range and have much more direct contact with this demographic than either of you would.
When the powder keg blows, I will be the first one back here to tell you I told you so.
A more disfunctional community I have never witnessed and I have lived in about a dozen different that include small and large cities, towns, and suburbia.
Wow-holy doomsdayer-
I have to think maybe it is the few isolated ones your kids keep company with?
Your observation and my own is obviously different. I tried to present mine to show you where I'm coming from, can you do the same so I better understand your position?
What behavior have they demonstrated that has led you to this assessment?
What aspects do you find dysfunctional here compared to other places you have been?
If you have specific evidence that something might take place, you're responsible to contact acting Chief Koch at the Nazareth Borough Police Dept.
interestingly enough my husband ran into one of his high school teachers last night
the teacher said he had been pulled out of retirment to teach at NASD for a couple of months-some sort of fill in-
anyhow the teacher who my husband said was a strong teacher, one of his best in NASD who required a great deal from his students, had been retired for 10-15 years and his comment was that he was surprised at what he found--that the kids were really pretty well behaved and basically good kids--
guess he might have suspected worse and good to hear that someone out of the NASD for a decade or more was pleased with what he saw from the students---
my husband didn't inquire as to what he thought of the system/admin--now that is something I would of liked to have known
agree with Bernie-you really have to take the time to talk with someone before you judge them---
Ross
I mean c'mon, really. Your kids are like 5 & 9, respectively. How much REAL interaction do you have with NASD teenagers?
Same goes for Bernie.
To KNOW them is not to LOVE them.
Being the parent of four teenage boys I feel fairly well equipped to comment on the youth of Nazareth. For the most part all of the interactions I have had with my sons' friends have been extremely positive. They have however, told me about some of the kids in the area, a small minority, who exist to smoke, do drugs, hang out and cause trouble. Unfortunately, these are the kids that are visible hanging around Nazareth which gives people the impression that this is what all of the kids are like. The rest of the kids are busy with sports, band, clubs and after school jobs. A good reason to support the preforming arts, sports and various other activities offered by NASD.
In response to the anonymous poster who claims he or she is in a "better position to know," I am sorry you have this view. And believe me, I'm not the "hide my head in the sand" type. Of course there are some bad kids. Nazareth is no worse and probably no better than other communities. But most kids I deal with are very nice to me. And I do get to see them quite a bit, especially in the warmer months.
I agree with you Anon 3:23
However, why build a skate park for this visible minority? I will go along with it on one condition - that the officials then restrict these loitering and skating activities to that park.
Otherwise, spend the money on a group with a greater need and that will appreciate it more.
I for one feel it is a good idea to build a skate park for these kids...maybe it will keep them off the roads and parking lots. I do see some of the kids riding their skate boards to school in the am and this concerns me because they are on the road and hard to see. Not every kid plays basketball, tennis ect... but we have these facilities available and I think it is great to accomodate these kids. There isn't much in Nazareth for the youth to do. Would be nice if there was a local bowling alley. As for the youth in Nazareth, they are no different than the surrounding areas. I think some kids have a lack of respect for the community, and I blame the parents for unsupervising their kids. I have had a few experiences such as: Driving home from work one day I witnessed 3 teenage girls approx 14yrs old walking and they threw their slurpee cups in the middle of the road....this upset me because they did it right out in the open and din't seem to care that I or the other drivers saw them...another instance was at the Mcdonalds on 248, there were approx 5 teenage boys being loud and using foul language and then when they left one of them threw his hamurger wrappers on the floor purpously and my nephew who was with me( asked why the boy did that and I responded loudly " well unfortunatley he is imature and doesn't know how to behave in public" and a few of the boys put there heads down and walked out. This is the kind of behavoir that really dissapoints me. Alot of parents just drop there kids off at the movies and let them hang out and don't supervise them. I for one wasn't aloud to run the streets or go to the malls without parental supervision until I was altleast 16 and acted mature enough to be trusted. I have to be honest, I used to walk frequently at night, but the past few years have stopped because I don't feel safe. I was at a park near my home last summer with my 3 year old daughter and a group of teenagers came and they were using foul language and really being rough with each other physically and I felt threatened...they saw I had a toddler with me and continued to use foul language and act violent, this is scarey that they don't seem to care....who's fault is it..I know I was raised to think more of myself and care what others thought of me to some extent but it seems like the youth today are encouraged to "be themselves and not care what anyone else thinks". We have to find that middle ground. It seems like most people not only the youth of today think about themselves and not the guy next to them.
Ross
Your points were made perfectly, unfortunately it seems by some of the anonymous comments that not everyone understood.
You all have a point. You can't speak in generalities about these kids, they come in a types.
I live across the street from a skateboarding "magnet" - a set of concrete steps that kids like to tool down on with their boards. And my driveway has a tempting hump on it that bicyclists and skateboarders like to fly off of.
I've talked to some of these kids in the past and they have been polite. I don't blame a kid for jumping the hump in my driveway once while coming down the street. But I don't tolerate my driveway being used as their own personal playground. Usually when I politely inform an "offender" they listen and move on, often after making a wise remark and jumping the hump one more time. I ignore the remark and they move on --- no problem, I'm really not looking for a confrontation!
Well last fall I learned that apparently when they are in large groups they don't like to back down. This group decided they weren't going to leave. After the usual polite "not here" from me I receive a barrage of insults and they decide to "hoover" in front of my driveway. I had to move a car, and they took this as a sign that I left. When I return I find my drive has become a playground. So it escalates, I shout, they dawdle and curse me, I give one a push and of course the child says he's going to have his parents sue me. I say "Fine, I'm game!" and I call the police so the young man has an opportunity to press charges on me. About a third split right away these decided to stay. Notice how many are hiding their faces - maybe they belong to a religious sect that avoids having their picture taken?
This child wasn't shy about having his picture taken I wish I had audio recorded so you could hear him threatening me. And the other children were adorable also, grabbing their crotches and telling my wife to "S**k this".
I think that's what prompted me to start taking pictures. That and so they knew that if I had any graffiti or vandalism in the future these pictures would lead me to them.
The police came and surprisingly enough I wasn't charged with harming the poor cherub. And they got a warning from the cop.
Oh, you can see their faces in that picture. Recognize any?
Yeah, I know there's good kids out there. But these ain't them...
From lots of first hand experience, to KNOW them, really know them is to discover how generous and troubled, funny and scared, ambitious and tentative, loving and scarred they really are. Just like you and me. To know them is to LOVE them. To generalize and NOT really get to know them is a disservice to them and you.
7:50 Anon, yeah sure you're right. Meet these kids individually and they're not so bad, usually. In fact I'm sure some of those kids are the same ones I talked to while working on my car a year before. But get them in a pack and it's a whole different story. I wish you could have seen how scared, upset, and shocked my wife was by their behavior.
Something tells me that putting them in the park isn't going to clean up their mouths or their behavior.
i cant speak for all the kids in the area, but for Mr. Ohare please drive around to some of the local buinesses and express your feeling to them as they have to repaint there buildings after they have been spray-painted but mostly skateboarders. i hear all the people complain about not having anything to do after school..why dont some of these kids (juniors/seniors), try getting a job? hey you dont have to work everyday, i worked after school tobuy the things i wanted..the kids now just have mom/dad give it to them.
i realize theres not alot of places to go, but you cant just trespass on other peoples property.
Thanks for the pictures (seriously). People have come to Council meetings before to address the kids that have been hanging around that area.
People have complained to the Mayor and Council. I hope they continue to complain until an effective way to deal with them is found.
Your point is also well taken that one or two alone is much different than a large group.
I wouldn't want them on my property either, because if one of them falls and gets hurt you'll probably get sued by their parents.
The original comment was not about these particular kids, it was that Nazareth School District kids as a whole were derelicts.
I've had small forms of vandalism at my house and I've had neighbors experience the same.
Seems to me the points that have been raised are that there are issues that need to be addressed, but that most kids are just that kids. They do good and bad, and hopefully they learn from it.
A skate park may not the solve the problem altogether, but putting one up and then enforcing some type of fine for skating on public streets and sidewalks would be more palatable (ie they have been given somewhere else to go).
I don't think too many would disagree that we want our self, property, and streets safe. All of this takes enforcement, and enforcement costs money.
The question then becomes what do we want to achieve and at what cost?
On the flip side, we can't individually wage war with each child we assume to be a problem on the basis of clothing. We have to be open enough to give them the benefit of the doubt. Will some of them screw up? Of course they will - they're kids.
It didn't take me five minutes after making my post for me to feel comfortable with being hard on these kids.
As I left the Shafer school area I got to see one of Nazareth's finest citizens fling his skateboard off the wall of that beautiful school. You know, right below the sign that forbids them to skateboard, loiter, etc. Of course, the have covered the sign with their bumper stickers.
Then ironically, right in front of Ross' house there were three kids walking down the middle of the road. They saw me coming as I could see them smirking a half a block away.
You guessed it. They were in the middle of the road and they weren't moving. I allowed the opposing traffic to clear and then I left the lane to avoid the trio. One of them shouted something foul on the way by. I guess I got a little too close to them.
Then a mere 15 seconds later as I turned west on North Street, I was delighted to see another bunch of teenagers desecrating the cemetary which they were using as a playground.
Are these kids really that bored and lonely that this is what they do? Yes, on one hand I feel sorry for them because they are obviously misguided. On the other hand they are a rather unsympathetic group because of their horrible behavior.
That is three examples in a short commute from NAHS through town. Thanks for the pictures. I've been there.
A clear problem within a certain group - what is the cure?
As I said, I'd hope we'd all agree most people, kids and adults, are good, and we'd also acknowledge there are those that aren't.
So within this context of these kids that aren't, what should be done?
How do we fix the problem? Do we find ways to fine them, jail them, or find ways to engage them/encourage them not to do what they are doing and be more productive?
I'd have to guess it's worth the effort to find ways to convince them to be worth something to society rather than become a drain on it.
I do not, perhaps they can produce Nazareth Tourism videos like this one ...
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1192205494
Unfortunately, "we" cannot do a thing other than call the police and then put ourselves in danger of retaliation from these misguided juveniles. The people clearly responsible here are the parents. I don't know exactly what procedure the police follow in cases such as reported by Wayne, but I would hope before leaving these kids off with a "warning" their parents would be notified. Unfortunately, too often,the parents in these cases defend their kids, blame everybody else, and enable their kids to continue with their disruptive behavior. A sad observation on the state of our society today.
The video to me showed kids being proud of their accomplishments.
Albeit, some of those were performed on individual's private property, business property, and the current MS steps, but none-the-less, it was a video production about what they do.
I'd doubt their parents submitted it to the local media, and they didn't get a medal or trophy for their work.
They also weren't given a facility or rec area from the community.
Again, I'm not saying that skating on these properties is right or that every kid that skates or group that causes a problem is right, but the video shows that these kids are doing their thing just like kids do in traditional sports, except they don't have adults promoting, officiating, advocating or coordinating their activity.
And in regard to a tourism video, where is one for Nazareth online? In the absence of anything else I guess this is it. Is that a knock on the kids that made it, or the adults who didn't?
At 11:25 PM, Anonymous said…
...but I would hope before leaving these kids off with a "warning" their parents would be notified.
No they weren't, not that I know of. And those are the one's that didn't flee when they knew the police were coming. They knew they were untouchable. But maybe the one's who tried hiding their faces did fear something, maybe their parents?
I must take issue with those commenters who suggest that the problem is caused by a lack of discipline by the teens' parents. While that is absolutely a contributing factor, please understand that these kids feel absolutely unwanted in Nazareth. The "No Skateboarding" signs they cover and vandalize? They're often in precisely the best skateboarding spots, and were placed there without the owners even speaking to the kids about the situation. Speaking as a 2005 graduate of NAHS, I can say with complete and utter certainty that one of the worst things for a high school student to feel is that his community would rather he weren't part of it. That's precisely how Nazareth makes these kids feel.
Incidentally, I don't have quotes offhand, but as a Classical Civilizations major, I can tell you that "the youth of today" has been a theme in adult life for at least the last 2500 years, but I doubt that's where it stops. I'd wager that the first proto-human to walk on two legs got quite a lot of "These kids today, with their stupid fads" looks from the adult members of his tribe.
The owners place the signs with very good reasons:
(1) Liability
(2) Vandalism - the grinding of skateboards on railings and other property defaces it.
(3) Nuisance - if you allow the kids to congregate it is like ants at a picnic. First there are a few and eventually there are a hoard.
I think you got the chicken and egg scenario backwards. The kids are "not wanted" because of their clothes, age, or interests. They are unwanted because of their attitudes, profanity, and lack of respect.
The kids in the videos seem pretty talented and it is a good thing that the skate park will be built. I now can see why JH on Naz Council has really pushed for this, especially since his son apparently spends a great deal of time perfecting his "ollie" off of Mivajos loading dock.
Jonas, I'm a bit perplexed.
You said:
[quote]...please understand that these kids feel absolutely unwanted in Nazareth. The "No Skateboarding" signs they cover and vandalize? They're often in precisely the best skateboarding spots, and were placed there without the owners even speaking to the kids about the situation.[/quote]
I'm at a loss as to why a property owner should be looked down upon for securing their property.
Look, I grew up in Nazareth and did plenty of biking, skating, and whatnot on private property. But we all recognized the fact that it was private property! If an owner complained, we apologized and were out of there! Cursing at adults and vandalism was not what we did. One place we used for bicycle racing was actual improved by our using it because we took the time to sweep the broken glass off of the abandoned lot. But we knew that we didn't have any "squatter's rights" to the land.
I don't blame a kid for trying to get away with whatever --- I did my share of playing on empty lots, loading docks, rail cars, etc,. But I think tolerating the brazen attitude where they think they have a right to use and abuse private property is a path toward nothing but more trouble.
Right now as I write this I can hear the skateboarders flying off the old factory steps and into the street. I don't bother them because it's not my land. But if the owner puts up a sign (next to the "No Parking" sign)why do you think he should consult with them? He didn't consult with me when he put the "No Parking" up, and I wouldn't expect him to!
I'm not putting up a "No Skateboarding" sign, I shouldn't have to. It's just common decency to respect someone's land. I shouldn't have to put up with skateboarders and bicyclists going in between the few feet between my garage and car. Why would this have to be explained or discussed?
As for as how these kids are dressed (It seems to be brought up a bit in this thread)it's a non-topic. I'm not complaining how they are dressed! In fact those kids in my pictures are dressed just as well as I am most days!!!! I work with all sorts of pierced and tattooed people and don't judge them solely by their appearance.
so getting back to the original post.....
take a ride over to parkland school district and its a rare find to see any of there students acting in this behavior. i think that was the point trying to be made.. and i kinda think it was. sorry.
wayne, i totally agree with you. the kids dont pay the taxes (okay lets not start anything there!).. im a homeowner/taxpayer. i take care of my property. why in the heck would i just let some strangers skateboard/bike up and down my property? it makes no sense whats so ever. my wifes a great cook, does that mean everyone has the right to come over for dinner because its a great place to eat? i mean thats what your sounding like!! uhhhh..
come on now-- lets try to make sense!
Thanks for bringing this back.
You will find kids like that at Parkland and every other school, but it is not all the kids, and it is not only kids who look a certain way.
The original comment was in essence that Parkland has ONLY angelic, wealthy, well-behaved, and well-mannered students, and Nazareth has nothing but degenerates, therefore it is an insult to Parkland to compare the two.
The point of my post was to not stereotype and generalize.
I didn't intend to say every kid is good, even good ones make mistakes and screw up. And yes there are bad and disrespectful kids (as Wayne noted worse and more disrespectful when in large groups).
And on a separate point, I do think there is a general lack of respect for property and that lack of respect exists because it wasn't instilled. I blame that on the parents and/or lack thereof.
At 6:34 PM, NewsOverCoffee said…
And on a separate point, I do think there is a general lack of respect for property and that lack of respect exists because it wasn't instilled. I blame that on the parents and/or lack thereof.
At least we have established that none of the children in my pictures belong to Ross!
:-D
And you're right, Nazareth's kids are no worse than any other district's.
I am sure that most kids are good and stay out of trouble....
However, that doesn't include the delinquents who went on a vandalism rampage in my neighborhood (Upp. Naz Twnsp) this past Saturday evening (3/3).
Sunday morning, I went out to get the paper and found my mailbox had been destroyed. The side was smashed, the door was resting in the middle of the road up the street and the wood base had almost been separated from the post.
Later that day, while driving down Schoeneck, I noticed a couple other mail boxes that had been hit (mailbox baseball style).
While replacing my mailbox and repairing my post later on Sunday, I walked up the street and found another mailbox that had been hit (the flag was gone) and two cars parked along side of the road that had been whacked. Their driver's side mirrors were busted up and one was lying in the middle of the street. I talked to one of the neighbors and they mentioned that their dog went "nuts" about 11:00 PM. They were a little more vigilant because their car had been egged only the weekend before.
I suppose this could have been an adult who did all this, but I doubt it.
I'm 31 years old, built a new home in Upper Nazareth in 2002 and I moved here from Easton. I've lived in Easton nearly my whole life and have been stake boarding since I was 12 years old.
I want to clue most of you in — I will be stake boarding at this park. I know of nearly a dozen other 20-30 y/o home-owning tax-paying citizens (business professionals, etc) who will be skate boarding at this park. Our children will be skate boarding at this park. We, they, all need this park.
I have to tell you we've been waiting for a place like this to call "our own" since skateboarding became popular back in the mid 80's!!!
These children, our children, are no different than any others of any other generation — most good, some bad, all in very desperate need of purpose and something (good) to do. By giving them a place, an opportunity, a chance if you will, you are creating an alternative for them. An alternative to loitering, to doing drugs, to drinking or getting into trouble.
Many kids will still get into trouble. Most will still try drugs and/or drink — if you think they won't you're fooling yourselves.
But by giving them a place to bide there time in a positive way, giving them goals by holding contests, you are doing the very best you can do for these kids as adults. You are providing them an alternative to trouble. And that, in my humble opinion, its worth every single penny.
~ Rich Strucke
Rich, your comment just made me very happy.
Wayne et al: I didn't present my feelings clearly, and I apologize. My comment was not meant to insinuate that property owners should have to check with the kids before putting up signs saying "No skateboarding", or what have you. I simply meant that as a young person, it would be nice to occasionally receive a "Look, I've put up this 'No Skating' sign, and here's why... now please don't skate here any more" instead of a "Go away or I'll call the cops." Think of it this way: which would *you* rather hear, even if you were in the wrong?
Anonymous 9:17- with all due respect, I don't have it backwards. I was a straight-A Honor Roll, Honor Society student, I graduated 25th in my class, and I never skateboarded a day in my life. That didn't register with the community. What did was that I was a teenager, and I would sometimes see people, usually older, cross the street to avoid walking near me. That is an incredibly hurtful thing.
I quote you here: "(3) Nuisance - if you allow the kids to congregate it is like ants at a picnic. First there are a few and eventually there are a hoard."
You say the kids have a lack of respect. I say, give them respect, and they'll return it. When they see themselves called nuisances and ants in public forums like this one, it's pretty hard for them to respect the people doing it.
Have you ever seen one of these kids by himself on the street and just given him a small wave and a smile, or a "Hi"? Try it sometime. My bet is you'll get a very surprised look, followed by a wave or a hello back. Do that with a few of the kids, maybe strike up a conversation or two, and you might be surprised how much respect you get from them.
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