Meeting started at 7:00 PM. Board members present were Mr. Keller, Ms. Callie, Ms. McDonald and Mr. Maher. Admin members present were Dr. Lesky, Ms. Swigart, Ms. Dautrich and Ms. Rischoff. There were approximately 30 people in attendance.
The proposed budget for 2007-08 was discussed by Ms. Rischoff. Specifically highlighted was the "windfall" NASD received due to Northampton County assessments increasing by 6.58% instead of 4.00%. The reason for this increase is due to Northampton Co. catching up on its backlog. This increase should not be expected next year. The preliminary budget for 2007-08 is $57,169,908. Forecasting into the future, the 2012 fiscal year shows a budget deficit of $4.4M. This was described as a "cause for concern".
Dr. Lesky then went through the cuts proposed and what the admin was recommending to the board to be added back in. These items have been reported previously (and you can go to the NASD district website and search admin, budget for all kinds of good stuff... they really do a good job of getting everything up there). Items to be added back in include:
* $100K senior citizen tax rebate
* $53.8K earned income tax collection compensation
* $32K for Fast Math/My Access (Tech still gets cut approx. $68K)
* $100K for MS/HS resource officer and updated security plan. Originally NASD was looking for a $41K cut, but recent events have caused us to look at our children's safety. Therefore, instead of cutting, they are adding back the $41K plus an additional $59K for security equipment, surveillance, securing entrances, etc. Dr. Lesky said they wouldn't spend over the $100K and may not even spend all of that which is allocated.
* $40K for the athletic fund - In the future, they will look at the possibility of adding an activity fee ($25-50/activity) as a possible way to defray costs.
* $18K for late activity buses
* $34K for field trips
* $10K for EPED positions (this still represents an approximate $7K cut)
* $51K for HS/MS library positions (keeping library coverage as is currently)
* $11.5K for CDC operator (this still represents an approxiate $6K cut)
* $33.8K for FT custodian (this still represents an cut of about $13K - basically a 4/hr day position)
* $27K for in-school suspension coordinator
* $17K for special ed. supv. (restructuring dept)
* $45K for crossing guards in Naz. Borough
The admin is recommending adding back into the budget $529,895. NASD would still hold the tax increase at 4.2%. We would then collect an extra $732,172 which NASD would propose to put into a capital reserve fund. This was described as a "good start" on future budgets.
The board members discussed the above cuts. Mr. Maher proposed a different scenario. His scenario would have NASD make the previously proposed cuts and save the $1.2M to apply to future budgets. In his scenario, NASD would be looking at a budget shortfall of $2.9M in 2012 which is a reduction of $1.5M from the above projections.
The public was then asked for their input. Several people stressed the importance of athletics. Prevention of childhood obesity and diabetes were mentioned. I think everyone there was in agreement that athletics are important. I stated that I didn't think a modest fee for participation in extra-curricular activities would be all bad. I made the point that we are looking at a $2M hole in our budget come 2009-10 and therefore any sacrifices we can make now, will ultimately help us in the future (when we have even bigger problems).
Comments wrapped up and meeting adjourned around 8:30.
51 comments:
What I would like to know, though, is how the "Pay to Play" fee is determined. If my child plays basketball and your child plays football and we both pay the same fee, then I would expect the school district to provide equal funding to both groups...but we all know that's not how it is. Thousands of dollars get showered upon the football team, yet girls sports receive a pittance. I would hope they'll tier these fees instead of flat fees.
I don't agree with the previous post. I have a daughter involved in varsity athletics and I don't see much of a discrepancy with monies spent between girls and boys athletics. I also don't see "thousands" spent on football while other teams are ignored. For the most part, the girls teams we've been involved with seem to get what they need. I think a modest activity fee ($25. or $50) per year is reasonable, most of us are probably spending more than that participating in fund raisers for the various booster clubs.
The costs are very much different.
To outfit a football player with the required equipment costs quite a bit more than say a basketball player's equipment.
Larger teams will require more transporation to away games (2 or 3 buses compared to 1), so there are additional costs there as well.
I personally think pay to play is a great idea and would ease some of the burden on taxpayers, especially those of us that don't have kids on district sports teams.
Fees should be done on a sport by sport basis. Look at the cost for that sport (uniforms, equipment, transportation, coaching, etc.), then divide the cost across the number of players in that sport. Then you have the fee to play.
How the team parents choose to pay that is up to them. Be it writing a check or fundraising.
I think sports are an important part of middle/high school life. But given the budget troubles that we are now facing, it is time to start cutting.
Let's face facts, we are going to be hit by larger bills. I don't think it is equitable to place additional burden on those of us that are not using the sports programs.
Keep in mind, this is not sports, it is all extra-curricular activities.
Band, music, drama club, chess club, scholastic scrimmage, newspaper, yearbook, you name it.
I don't like the concept because it further separates the haves from the have-nots.
The kids with means already have the advantage of being supported with equipment, lessons, and camps that others can't always afford, now some could be 'banned' from playing because they can't afford to.
Regarding equity, Title IX applies to HS as well as college. Football skews the balance in a way that can't be made up. Consider staff alone. Football has MS, FR, JV, and Varsity squads I'm guessing ten paid? (Don't have eped notes with me). Don't believe any other sport has the same number of coaches, nor the same salary and budget as football. I would guess it at least doubles the next closest sport over any five year period (I'm using five to account for uniform cycle). And don't argue gate revenue, even with that off-set they are way ahead.
I'd much rather we cut some overhead, renegotiate everywhere we can (suppliers, copy contracts, etc) and get as lean as we can while being effective (yes cut back on the admin creep). Then move to extra curricular, not the other way around.
Our budget has gone up almost 50% in a short time, we haven't increased enrollment that much, something can be cut.
BTW, how would you divide the $5M for the pool? Over 20 years construction cost is $250,000 per year, 30 kids a year roughly $8,500 per kid per year once other costs are added in.
One has to question where is all the new money going?
With the amount of new housing being build, with it comes all that additional tax revenue to the district.
Where is it going? I would love to see the books to figure out where it is being spent.
From what I can see, there are a couple of critical factors:
-Greed from the administration. We continue to see pay raises to the administrators, increase in admin positions, yet the district is being run like a third world country.
-Greed from the teachers. Yes, the last contract dispute was nothing more than mere greed. Give me more. Take a clue from what is going on in Detroit and what happened to Bethlehem Steal (as well as the rest of the steal industry). Unions had a large part in killing them.
The district touts the new bus (singular bus). However, we the taxpayers helped pay for it (through both our school taxes as well as state taxes. Will we see a break on our taxes for the decreased costs as the fleet expands? No, we will be paying more through our tax dollars.
We have to bite the bullet and cut until it hurts. At the administration level, in activities, and yes, even the teachers.
Yes, some students/parents will not be able to afford the fees. That is where an organized booster club (or PTA) should step in and maybe form a scholarship fund. Student athletes could apply and receive funding based on abilities and need.
We need to face some harsh realities here. Either way, we are going to be paying more, either through taxes or fundraising.
PAY TO PLAY is the way to go-- for all activities. It is a harsh reality, but necessary at this time. The townships and the builders are continuing to place an overload on the district. The taxpayers continue to foot the bill alone. Our schools are crowded, we are not building new schools, we are not getting community facilities, we are not getting parks, we are not getting services in close proximity, only truck depots -- WHAT ARE WE GETTING besides overloaded classrooms and higher taxes???
Pay to Play is the way to go. Sorry -- I have payed for my kids activities for years because none of them are supplied within the district. When I hit my budget-- my kids have had to choose. That's life.
We are building the third MS since 1986 or so. We are adding onto the HS, again. And, we just built a new maintenance facility.
We are now building a turf field and track along with new fencing for the football field.
We are building.
The borough offers many facilities and parks, but the townships have mostly failed in this area so people put it on the schools to provide them.
The economics are simple. The cost to educate a student has risen from roughly 7000 to I believe 13000 by next years budget. If the tax on a new home is 10,000 and they have two kids we're short 7000.
The bigger question is why has the budget increased in disproportion to the number of students moving in - it is not as many as you think or are led to believe.
We want, we get, we can't stop.
Tried making these arguments when the MS was pushed through and for as many people who like to complain about it, not that many showed up at the meetings to sway the board. Same deal when elections rolled around. Two incumbents chose not to run (and leave others to handle this mess) and people didn't step up despite being 'outraged' at what is happening.
So the solution becomes make kids pay.
I'd love to know how much money is raised for the Education Foundation, all student groups and activities, ptas, etc. and then tack that onto the current expenses to get a true picture of what we are paying.
And anon is right we paid $14,000 so Jennings can save 70% on gas. We still pay them the same per bus run. Nice for the environment and Jennings (not bad things) but also really not something we can afford right now.
Finally with very few exceptions orr classrooms are not overloaded. At the elem level 25 is max and as budgets get tighter each year I don't believe there will be a choice except to have larger classrooms at all levels. This was the concern from the fall when the budget was first released and then again when the MS was built - we are setting ourselves up for big problems in the future and the kids will be the ones getting hurt.
Obviously, it is something I'm not real pleased/happy with, which is why I'm glad Brad goes to the Board meetings so I can attend Council.
Best wishes all, thanks for the comments - and don't forget to come out to the Nazareth News Agency tonight for the candidate open house!
Anon 10:53-
You mentioned the budget... Go to the district website and click on business admin (from the admin drop-down). There you will see more budget information then you can handle. The admin really does a good job of getting this all out there on the website.
Spending has increased a great deal. Our budget has grown
from $42M in 200-04 to $54M in 2007-08 which is a 35.7% increase in 4 years! Our costs per student in that time has gone from $9,435/student to
$11,920/student (a 26.3% increase). However the overall enrollment has only
gone up from 4,483 to 4,796 (a 6.98% increase). Something is fundamentally wrong here.
I wish I had the answers. Dr. Lesky mentioned last night that 84% of our budget expenditures are "fixed costs". This includes (salaries, transportation, benefits, utilities, etc.) One might argue that everything is negotiable. The last thing I want to see is educational cuts.
The borough DOES offer facilities and nice parks, but not everyone lives in the borough and if you are under driving age-- it's difficult to get to.
No one is saying NASD should supply these community facilities and parks. You are right, the townships should and have not. But remember when people from out of the area are investigating where they should live, they look at the entire package-- there have been many 'plans' in the Nazareth area for years and none are coming to fruition other than more homes and truck depots.
The elem class sizes may be under 25-- but the MS is pushing 30 or more. Years ago 30+ kids in a classroom worked, but these days the curriculum is accelerated and these kids need more help.
Not being native to Nazareth, I can tell you I (and many others) have given up on the community. I will not go to a board meeting-- I have endured several years of ideas and suggestions at PTA meetings flatly rejected. 'Won't work here is always the answer'. It's amazing these people aren't still cooking and heating their homes over their fireplaces, there is such an objection to new ideas.
NASD doesn't need a new school constructed afterall-- the class sizes will probably decrease-- just count the number of 'for sale' signs in the new communities (Shoeneck Terrace, Foxwood Farms, Sterling Oaks) And they all just got here! Why do you suppose they are bailing?...
Kudos to those who have the guts to sign their name -- calling the administrators and teachers "greedy" and then not signing your name -- well, I think that's cowardice. I know this is not the forum for this, and I know you've gone over the reasons for keeping it anonymous, but I just think if mud is being slung, at least people should know who is slinging it.
To NOC,
Yes, there has been construction since 1986. However, don't forget that it was because the schools were filled with mold and were essentially toxic to the students that went there.
A new maintenance facility? Did we really need one of those considering our schools are crowded and with the number of new homes on the plans to be built, soon to be exploding at the seems.
Maybe they should have built a school instead. They have been talking and studying the new schools for well over four years now. Do people here not know how to take charge and make a decision? I think not.
As for going to the board meetings, I have also given up on going to any in this area because those that run them have made up their minds before the meeting has started and if I want to be treated like complete garbage, I can think of other ways to do it other than getting from some yahoo that is in charge. And yes, these people running things around here are a bunch of yahoos that have probably never lived anywhere but here, let alone traveled outside of the Nazareth area.
Parks, yes, we have lots of them. There is a great one in Lower Nazareth Township on Hanoverville Road nestled quaintly between two corn fields, complete with a no parking sign and just up from the recycle facility recently cited by the EPA for environmental problems.
Funny, don't remember seeing many people using that one.
Maybe we can have a meeting there, only we will have to park on 191 somewhere and walk the mile or so to it.
This is all indicative of how things are run in the Nazareth area. No thought whatsoever to what makes sense, only to what they want to do.
THAT is why spending per student has grown at such large rate. Spend like a bunch of sailors on leave, and greed by the teachers union to take much more than they are worth.
ANON 2:15 is right, there are a lot of homes, many on the higher end (read all those rich people that everyone keeps complaining about). I have talked to many of them, and there has been a general theme.
They don't like the schools, think there is nothing to do here, can't stand having to drive miles for even the most basic services, and find that people in general downright unfriendly.
So much for colonial hospitality since 1742. Guess that hospitality is only extended if you were born in and grew up in the Nazareth.
BTW, I am from this area, and moved back some years ago, and have made the exact same observations, so you can't peg me as one of those "pesky" New Jersey or New York transplants.
The area is a composite of municipalities and a school district. These entities are individual bodies with elected officials. As I happen to live in the borough, that is where I look for the services I need and I think they do a fairly good job of providing them and when you attend meetings they do listen.
Upper, Lower, and Bushkill seem to be the areas most people are complaining about whether it is for lack of services, too many warehouses, or too many homes, and not enough public facilities.
The NASD gets its complaints from all parties, those who want more and those who want less.
Regarding the building, they have gone ahead and made a decision to build a building for two grades that will house up to something like 1300 students. It should serve us for a long time because our largest classes coming up are about 420 and they get smaller after that.
We did not build the current MS because of mold. We built it because we said it was too small and could then expand the HS and eliminate the central offices being on the circle.
We got a nice new building. The HS additions were several and continue today with the Tech Education rooms being built. Space was converted from where maintenance once was, and there was also the Auditorium project not so long ago and science labs I believe at some point as well.
I'm not saying these were well thought out or long-range planned, but they were building projects.
I personally suggested a new elementary school K-6 which would have reduced both Elem and MS enrollments and cost much less than the MS that is coming, but that option was never considered by the district.
Regarding the meetings, I don't disagree. And it is a known fact which is why it keeps working. The board knows it will outlast the outcry and the admin knows it will outlast the board. In the end we all get what we deserve.
Having said that colonial hospitality is what you make of it. If you act in an inhospitable way, I'd imagine you get the same back. Take steps within your control to make things better. You won't fix everything, but you can fix some things.
I could dwell on bad things too but frankly it isn't very much fun.
Apathy isn't good, either. Last week hardly anyone came to the candidate night, but many of the elected officials and candidates from the borough were there. I have one candidate for school board who contacted me, no others. I have all five district magistrates.
If you want to start making a difference get to know the people that want to be leaders from the community and if they don't strike you as a good or honest person, don't vote for them.
Ross, well said! Although the K-6 idea was brought up at the committee meetings as an option to explore. I would also add to your final comment - "don't vote for them", but DO vote - and get involved! Whether in PTA, the community, your church, on the school board, the recreation board, or volunteer however works best for you, and attend the meetings to stay informed.
Ross,
From ANON 2:38
I stand corrected on the construction. However, it should not have taken 4+ years to decide what to build.
Here again is the problem. YOU were the only one to think outside the box with your suggestion that made sense in that it took us through the out years without breaking the enrollment maximums.
That is the underlying problem, no one in power seems to be able to do that.
As for hopitality, I personally make it a point to say "hi" to anyone I pass on the street, store, etc. More often than not, the person will turn away and act like I am not there. This is not my imagination, just a fact of living in the area. And for the record, it has been in Bushkill, Upper and Lower Nazareth as well as the boro where I have seen this behavior. Can I change, probably not, but I have fun watching the uncomfortable look on peoples faces when I give them a cheery hello.
I agree on the apathy part. I personally have not missed voting in any election since I turned 18 many years ago (not sure many could say the same thing).
This area reminds me of old time Chicago in that the powers that be dictate who is elected to what positions. I have yet to see someone that goes against the grain get elected.
I tried getting to know my community leaders, including supporting some when they went for election, only to have them turn once elected.
Not apathy, disgust. To watch how citizens of these communities are treated by their elected officials is beyond words.
The real kudos should go to those who point out the shortcomings in these communities, their leadership, and the organizations.
Afraid to sign their name? Who can blame them. Who needs to be villified or have their mailboxes busted or tires slashed?
I was a polyanna when I first moved here. I got involved and thought I could be a value-added member of a decision maing team. I quickly found out that if they wanted my opinion - they would give it to me.
Fols, what we have here is not a community that plans to fail, but one that fails to plan. Plain and simple.
Pointing out the flaws you mention is only 10% of the solution, the very easy part. There is value in gathering information and it is not always easy to distinguish collecting facts from complaining, but only if we find alternatives or solutions to present.
Anonymous comments shouldn't be an issue. They become an issue when people don't make responsible comments.
No one wants to read comment after comment of complaints without solutions. They want ideas that can be presented to solve problems.
We obviously have a budget problem that is known to exist not only this year but for many years to follow.
This problem diverts our attention from what ought to be the focus of the schools, education.
We are now forced to be so concerned with our budget that we won't be able to focus as much effort or money toward improving our education. Unfortunately we may be stuck with trying to salvage what we have. And that is a shame.
Ross:
I said it six months ago and I'll say it now. You view Nazareth through blue colored glasses.
So many of the comments in the recent posts were so dead on, I thought I had wrote them.
So much for colonial hospitality since 1742. Guess that hospitality is only extended if you were born in and grew up in the Nazareth.
BINGO!
As for hopitality, I personally make it a point to say "hi" to anyone I pass on the street, store, etc. More often than not, the person will turn away and act like I am not there.
BANGO!
This area reminds me of old time Chicago in that the powers that be dictate who is elected to what positions. I have yet to see someone that goes against the grain get elected.
BONGO!
And your solution/suggestion to remedy the problem?
from Kelley---just as a nit picking point Brad-
42% to 54% is a 22% increase ---right? not 37%? or maybe I miscalculated?---
also I was wondering if there were any #'s available as to the contributions made by the cement plants to our school district--being that they are practically our only source of industrial tax base in the district---
when I moved to the area a few years ago I remember hearing that Pen Argyl's taxes were low because of the GCS subsidies and just wondered how much taxes the cement plants pay and if they are considered in line with other industries taxes?
also of interest to me was that 4+ years ago when we were looking to buy in NASD there were just a handful of homes on the market and most sold in a matter of days---on todays MLS there were 141 homes available in the 18064 zip code---and many have been on the market a substantial amount of time---somewhat sobering I thought---
Kelley
Meanwhile-----could we give some points for EXCELLENCE---to the cast, pit orchestra, stage crew,directors Applgate, Felix, Boandl, and others for their efforts and enthusiasm in creating an absolutely great performance of No, No, Nannette. There is still opportunity to see the show this Friday and Saturday.
Kelley-
I had a typo. Our budgets are (and have been) as follows:
2003-04: $42M
2007-08: $57M (35.7% increase)
The real question is still:
Why has our budget grown by 35.7% when enrollment has only grown 6.98% in the same time period?
At 11:14 PM NOC said:
"And your solution/suggestion to remedy the problem?"
How do you change a society? As I said in my original comments (Anon 2:38), I have gone out of my way be nice. I do a daily walk and see many of the same people, and you would think after time things would change. They haven't.
Tried to make a difference in both the township and the schools, only to get it slammed back in my face. Thant includes the PTA. Nobody wants to hear anything that diverts from the normal path.
Sorry, I will only bang my head against the wall so many times before I realize that it is doing me no good, and that is the point I reached, and is one of the reasons you see so many "For Sale" signs throughout the region.
To Sharon Powell, Anon 10:05 PM hit the nail on the head as to why those of us who don't drink the koolade won't sign our names. I have seen at least one neighbor that spoke out be attacked by local officials.
It is a sad commentary on our area that some of us are feeling the way that we do, but I am not sure what can be done to fix it, it anything.
The root cause? Hard to say. Class envy? Possibly. Dislike of anyone not from here? Good odds on that one.
Granted, not everyone moving here is the nicest person, but then again, neither are all the ones currently living here. A lot of people on both sides paint the picture with a broad brush, and don't take the time to explore outside of that.
I have tried, and will continue to act in the friendly fashion I always do. On the rare occasion, I am rewarded with a pleasant reply and even some times, a nice conversation.
Uh...it's Colonial Hospitality since 1740 (not 1742). Maybe that's part of the problem with the "move ins." Those of us that have deep roots in the Nazareth area are not Neanderthals (and I resent any implications to the contrary). However, I will agree that this community is not the same as the community you left. Why did you leave? Because it was cheaper to live here? Because you could get more bang for your buck here? Seriously....why did you leave? But yet you come to this community and you're demanding "more community facilities, more parks, more services."...swimming pools, astroturf.....it won't be long before it isn't any cheaper to live here then it was in NJ. All you'll have gained is a longer commute.
I would like to comment on the equality in spending for sports. Can anyone tell me why the varsity softball team gets a complete uniform and JV gets a shirt and socks? The player then had to purchase $16.00 visors and provide their own shorts. From what I understand, middle school softball had to purchase their own shirts. Where is the equality there? If a uniform is going to be provided to one team, it should be provided to all.
hey brad-sorry for the nit pick--- I was figuring the percentages differently-get your point though-- I just got caught up in the numbers and percentages---
like you I really would like to see what the 35% increase gets us-
--how about the 24K survey discussion at the budget mtg weds eve?---yikes--- $ keeps going out and unanswered ?'s follow--
Kelley
Regarding sports, read this article about P'burg and its Title IX federal law suit.
Anon 12:14, I think what is often the case with new MS programs (past 7 years) is that the parents and varsity coach present a pitch to the board to get a team at the least cost possible to the district and offer bare-bones needs to help assure its approval.
Then after approved, as you are doing now, you look around and say why don't we have what the other levels or other programs have?
I agree with you that uniforms and safety equipment should be provided.
Defining equal is very tough. But roughly speaking, the boys and girls programs at all levels should be treated as equal as possible. So if MS boys and girls basketball has uniforms and warm-ups, so too should MS baseball and softball.
We've tried to give MS as many activities as possible and as a result the athletic budget has grown to support them (equipment, coaches, facilities, fees - officials, etc).
These costs were all once absorbed by the community leagues and not the NASD. In this regard and on this level I can see a pay-to-play (though I still don't like it and yes I'm starting to slide down that slippery slope).
Is the grass greener on the "other side" of the river?. Well, maybe once upon a time it was. But now it's being chewed up by housing developments, warehouses, parking lots. The peaceful neighborhood , the open space, is fast disapearing. The traffic is heavy and fast. The tax base is spiralling. How sad and ironic for those who were looking for greener pastures!
I can sense two posts (9:04 and 2:18) that really are anti-"move-ins."
While I can understand that the changing environment of the area can be distasteful, please don't take it out on those of us who chose to live here.
Why did I come here? Because I lost my job and was hired with a company in PA.
Why is that at all relevant anyway?
I plan on contributing (and I already do) to the community to help make it a better place.
Just because I'm from that "awful" place (NJ), do not stereotype me. People deserve better than that. Just the same, I make a point not to stereotype others (it is difficult, I know - human nature).
I do enjoy the area very much and do not want all the extra services that you state. I am one of the people screaming for fiscal responsibility so we don't have people deciding whether to pay their heating bills or their tax bills.
from anon 2:15"It's amazing these people aren't still cooking and heating their homes over their fireplaces, there is such an objection to new ideas." from anon 9:02 "The root cause? Hard to say. Class envy? Possibly."
Is this kind of rhetoric found in previous posts that I object to. I don't mind people moving into the community....as long as they realize this isn't NJ and there's a reason for that. It's kinda hard to be nice to this kind of "move in."
start with a conversation about the budget and wind up kicking one anothers' teeth in because of how long you were or were not a resident. Sheesh!
People move here because it is a good place to live. People that live here don't want the 'good' parts to go away or change.
What I don't get is the people who complain about being here and feel the compulsion to prove to everyone else that it is a miserable place to live, because they themself are in fact miserable.
Nazareth is a good place to live. Good, not perfect. There are always areas of improvement and obviously we don't always agree on what those are or how to improve them - that is where civil discourse comes in.
To blanket every new resident or every long time resident is frankly a waste of all our time.
I've met new residents who don't respect what we have, don't engage th ecommunity, and remain tied into to where they came from. Fine, there are long time residents who are nearly identical, and worse, they knock the people who are just like them that move here.
I've also met alot of people who moved into this area and are investing a lot of themselves into it including Brad whose posts on the school board are much appreciated, Lori who helped organize the residents over the summer regarding the expansion of the council chambers, and Joe who opened a new business in town and along with Lori is working to establish the Nazareth Downtown Association.
People are people. Simply put, if I don't like my job, I start looking for another because I spend an awful lot of time doing it. Same for your community. If you don't like it leave and go where you do like it.
If you have nothing to do but complain without making suggestions on what to do, and you're that miserable about the place you live, honestly, I feel sorry for you, but stop wasting our time and starting baseless arguments.
If you want change you make it happen. If you can't do it by yourself, you organize others who feel the same way.
On that note, have a great weekend, I'm off to happy hour;-)
Anon 4:18:
Your post reads as though there are 2 sets of people here (those native to Nazareth and the rest of the world,that is NJ!)
When I commented back at 2:15, I did state that I was not native to Nazareth-- YOU assumed I moved here from NJ. I have to chuckle-- I moved here ALL the way from Bethlehem Township where I grew up! I did not seek more green open space-- I merely liked the house I bought and I am still close to family! I am a little envious of their community center!
The other post you referenced also stated they were from this area as well!
While only 5 miles away-- there is a big cultural difference between 'here' and 'there'. I also welcome my new neighbors with their NJ, Maryland, Illinois, Florida, CA license plates because they smile more, look you in the eye when they speak and generally are very enthusiastic about becoming part of growing community.
Open your heart and mind to all of these people because in the end we are all on the same side-- trying to make a great community for our families. New ideas and suggestions are not always meant to try and turn Nazareth into NJ. Don't be so defensive-- maybe we can apply some new ideas and lessons learned from others to improve upon what is already here.
I cringe everytime I hear 'that won't work here'. HOW DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT TRYING!!!
Anon 4:56. You are exactly right. It is amazing how different, culturally, communities like Bethlehem and Easton are from Nazareth even though they are a stones throw away.
The best way to describe folks from Nazareth is skeptical. Always a wary eye. Always a peculiar stare.
In most places, people give you the respect and benefit of the doubt until you prove otherwise. In Nazareth, acceptance must be earned and it is an uphill battle. One misstep and look out -- your name is mud amongst your neighbors, their cousins, and their friends.
It doesn;t have to be this way, but change around here is like trying to turn around the Titanic.
Could you specify a very specific example of this action?
I'd appreciate it as you continue to use generalizations that I've asked people to avoid.
Many thanks.
NOC at 12:16 AM,
Specific examples? Here you go:
1. I walk every day on the exact same route, pass the exact same homes. People in their front yards either have no peripheral vision, or choose not to look up. Others walking in the opposite direction, suddenly see something on the ground (in the direction away from us) that diverts their gaze and attention away.
2. When invited to my home (party/playdate/sleep over)children are consistently dropped off in my driveway, parents don't get out of the car, and I have never met most of them. On the other side, when I have dropped my children, I never make it past the front door (I'm never invited in).
3. When in stores around the Main Street area, try to make light conversation with people working there. They look at you like you are from another planet. The only exception is Nazareth Floral and the sandwich shop.
4. At LNES, walk into the office some day and feel the love. I have gone in there on many occasions, there are workers sitting right there (3 feet from me) and have been completely ignored.
5. Saw a bicyclist have an accident on the road last weekend, clearly hurt. Then watched cars in front of me drive around and past the rider signaling for help. Thank god I stopped as she did have broken bones.
Here are just five examples. I could go on.
Questions?
I guess we've clearly had different experiences.
I too walk nearly every day. Often it is to school. We do see people and wave, say hi, and occasionally chat. Most of these people we've met over the past 3 or 4 years walking. I didn't previously know these people, we just got to 'know' one another through repetition. There are two women who walk in town and it has become a part of our routine to say hi as we pass. Never a word more but it is friendly.
We also walk to the library and have met people in the homes along New Street between Center and Belvidere. They may have been doing yard work or just sitting on the porch. Sometimes it is a way and hello, other times a conversation. Of course I'm quite a talker so maybe that has something to do with it.
When people walk by our home I try to say hi, but more often I'm trying to keep my dog from following them down the street.
On Main Street I've had many good experiences whether it is Les and Nancy at Nazareth Floral, Mike at the News Agency, Kate at the cafe, or anyone else. Though the used book store owner wasn't particularly friendly when I stopped in with my daughters. But hey I never said it was perfect.
I'll agree that the folks at the front desk at Shafer could be more friendly, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if the same were true at LNES.
Regarding the kids parties, we haven't had that experience, but then again, we've only had our daughters go to parties of kids they really knows and we make a point of either staying or knowing the people (our kids aren't that old either).
People are people, you seem to have taken the approach that everyone is mean and ornery and it appears you've gotten a chip on your shoulder as a result (take for instance how you close 'Questions?').
You can try as hard as you want to convince me that Nazareth is a miserable place with miserable people, but I'm not going to buy it because it hasn't been my experience.
I don't know what more you want me to say. I'll agree to disagree with you.
I can add to ANON 8:45 list:
MS pickup: The parking lot is filled with cars 10-15 minutes prior to the bell ringing everyday. NOBODY leaves their cars-- even on beautiful Spring sunny days! This is odd. In many communities-- parents often chat and socialize while waiting for their kids to come out of school. Not here. This is a perfect opportunity to get to know your neighbors and parents of kids your children are meeting at school.
This is a small community (population size), but it feels very large, because it is difficult to get to know others when they don't look your way. Unfriendly is too strong a word-- but guarded or as another poster put it -- skeptical.
Not to pick on you, Ross. But you mentioned birthday parties.
But let me try to give you another perspective, having lived in another community which was very transient and people were used to having neighbors move in and out.
If your kids are only going to birthday parties of those they know well -- have you thought about the 'new kid in class', who maybe moved here from Maryland because Dad got a new job? Who goes to his/her party? Do the other parents from that class go a little out of their way to include the new child in after school/weekend playdates and birthday parties or does this child have to wait 3-4 years until they have familiarity?
This is something for everyone reading to consider. IT IS HARD MOVING TO A NEW AREA, particularly on kids of any age. If you have never done it-- this may be hard to relate to. But surely everyone can reflect on this past school year.
Are you aware of a new child in your kid's class? Any age group.
Have you encouraged your child to include the new kid?
Have you reached out to a new neighbor?
Great point. This year my daughter's class had a new student. My daughter took the initiative to meet her because we talked to her about how hard it is to leave the place you lived, your friends, everything and come to an all new school.
To her credit she tried to make friends with the girl. During turkey lunches while we were waiting we saw the girl and her father, went over, invited them to join us and as it turned out they lived about two blocks away and moved in from out of state.
The kids have been to one another's house and we've spent time with the parents.
Regarding neighbors, we had a new couple move in across the street, saw them once or twice, waived, said, hello, talked a couple of times, shoveling snow or what have you. Then we saw balloons and a sign that they had a baby, so we got them a gift and took it over. Told her my wife was home during the day and if she ever needed any one to talk to or have some help with something not to hesitate to call.
Hope I passed your litmus test;-)
It's been my observation that whether you are a new or a long-time resident, most people are trying to do so many things that they get caught up in themselves and their life and forget to slow down and actually enjoy it. Instead they rush from place to place and don't find time for the niceties.
Ross:
You are part of the problem, no wonder you see it differently. Instead of taking the sidewalk and utilizing the crossing guards and walk down the middle of the friggin road with your two children.
Then you dangrously cross an intersection that does not have a crosswalk.
Why don;t you go the route that the district expects you to take? Why? Because you are special. You are from Nazareth. Rules don't apply to you.
Guess while I was outside doing something productive someone else was broiling and being vindictive;-)
Can't say I follow any relevance of that last post, but I can say the NASD never provided me with a prescribed walking route.
I do walk on a road that has no sidewalks, so by virtue of that we do walk in the road, though not in the middle.
We cross the road where several other people do and we often stand and watch as cars nearly collide into one another in their rush to get to where ever they are going.
I'm not sure what you have against me personally, but I believe it is my responsibility to get my daughter to school on time each school day and that is what I do.
You won't see me racing to Shafer at 8:03 oblivious to all other vehicles and pedestrians in my path in an attempt to keep my daughter from being late.
We leave in plenty of time, spend a good ten minutes or so talking to one another, get exercise, see people and say hi, watch birds or animals that we happen across, and genuinely have a nice time. We are not hurried nor harried.
On the way home I have another ten minutes with my other daughter getting all the attention. Same deal on the way back, no hurry, lots of enjoyment.
If you don't like where I walk, or more to the point that I enjoy my life, then so be it. I guess that is my special privilege.
Wow...that's all I can say. I read every post and am amazed at how "ugly" they've gotten.
My family is a recent "transplant" from NY to Nazareth. We moved here for quality of life reasons. We chose to leave the city for a more meaningful life - better schools, better housing, etc. There will be problems and issues whereever you live; however, it's up to us - as parents - as citizens - as humans to make life better. Whether it's a quick "hello" to someone walking by, a chat with someone in a store, etc. If people look down as you pass by - then it's their problem (maybe they have a lot on their mind, maybe they're having a bad day). In any event - let's enjoy what we have...life is too short. Let me remind you - my family is a "transplant" from NY. I am sometimes reluctant to admit that for fear of snide remarks. My husband was sitting at his desk on the 65th Floor of 2 World Trade Center that horrific morning; thankfully he was spared. We want to enjoy our life - we chose Nazareth for this reason.
Well put, and frankly, a lot of these feelings are perceived.
If you walk into a store or meet a person, now do they know your history?
They don't.
I've heard it from many sides and tonight my wife and I were talking about it during dinner and while we have many friends who are from the area, we have as many who are not. Moreover, we probably interact on a day to day basis with more who do not.
As you say, enjoy what you have, when you have it, and don't put it off for another day because you may not get it.
Thanks for the comments anon 9:02 and welcome to the neighborhood.
When we moved here some ten years ago and I registered my youngest child at Shafer the reception was not at all friendly. The secretary's, (you know the one now at the high school)response to us was "at least you didn't move here from NJ." We moved from the South, although we are Native Pennsylvanians. As one of the first residents of a new development, it was extremely difficult to get to know people and the community at Shafer was not at all welcoming. Turkey Day luncheon, we sat by ourselves until a couple of other families sat with us and after introductions we were ignored completely. We found the same reception at Youth Sports, fortunately children are not quite so set in their ways and my child was able to make a few friends.
Thank goodness our development is now finished and other like minded residents have moved in. We have many friends, almost all of whom are from out of town or Easton and Bethlehem.
We have lived in many places throughout our 25 year marriage and I have to say that Nazareth by far has been the greatest challenge to find the quality of life that we have become accustomed to and I am not referring to "services" either.
While I was not born in the Lehigh Valley, I spent most of my formative years here. I have also lived in a handful of other regions of the country, including the west coast and New England. Nazareth, by far, is the least hospitable area of the many regions I have experienced.
We have been here for a dozen or so years. On numerous occasions we have had people in town for family events or just occasional visits. One couple had enough of a negative experience in their brief stay here that they commented about the bad vibe and the unfriendliness of the residents.
The negativity of this area is very palpable. As unconcerned as you are Ross about others experiences they are very real and not the exception.
Whenever you whine about generalizations and ask for examples you are very dismissive when people list several examples of the rude behavior. You write it off with a simple "My wife and I see it differenly".
You know the funny thing about generalizations are that they are generally true.
BTW, we are still in touch with that couple who felt uncomfortable in Nazareth. I am not saying they won't come down here, but lets just say we visit them more often than not. It is kind of embarassing to have to be ashamed of the place you call home.
I respect that you don't agree with me, and I've noted I'll agree to disagree on a perception, feel, observation, they are obviously unique to an individual.
I don't understand where some of you are coming from because it has not been my experience.
I don't think it is fair that you either attack me for it or put words in my mouth that I did not state.
I never dismissed anyone by saying, "My wife and I see it differenly".
I only stated that my wife and I were discussing these posts and noted we probably interact with more people not from Nazareth, than those from Nazareth on a daily basis.
Anon 7:46 pointed out they had to wait for their development to be completed to have like-minded people who they could be friends with and also mentioned those from Easton and Bethlehem.
I'm not sure if I'm reading them correctly, but it seems Anon 7:46 is specifically speaking of Nazareth Borough vs. the development they are living in, but I'm also guessing the friends from Easton and Bethlehem live in sub-divisions there and not the boroughs as well.
It got me thinking that maybe there are different needs and these different needs have led to more pronounced differences in perception.
For instance, if you are from the Nazareth area, you have family and friends in the area. Not that you may visit with them regularly, but they are there. You have a familiarity and know 'local names'. If you are not from the area, you may have a stronger need to know people more immediately because you don't have a physical support network of any kind nearby.
I have friends who are from Nazareth and have relocated to other places for work. They have consistently purchased homes in new developments based on the belief that there would be people of roughly similar age, means, and professionalism. This makes for a deep pool of potential friends and acquaintances - fast.
So maybe this difference of need is a reason why we are observing the same place in such a different way.
I've tried to be open and understanding, and I still am. I don't think the personal attacks on me are warranted and the only dismissals I made were when people made blanket statements. When a person provided a list, I provided a counter-list and I said I'd agree to disagree.
No one has to be 'right' or 'wrong' on this, it was originated with the knock on new residents for raising taxes, which I also don't agree with. I'm not going to blame someone for buying a home that is for sale, any more than I'm going to blame a farmer for making millions after years of hard work for selling the land when the farm was no longer profitable. I may not like the changing landscape, but I'm not going to blame the person.
Have a great week and if people are going to further comment, please keep the attacks off the page. If people are interested in meeting some of the good people that I believe are helping to make Nazareth an even better place to live, come out to the Nazareth YMCA on May 21 for the next Nazareth Downtown Association meeting.
Ross,
As the person that kind of started this discussion with my post on the original topic, please don't take this as an attack on you.
From everything I have seen you post, and by your own description of you and your family's interaction, you are the exception to the rule. Just look how you have put yourself into the public eye with NOC!
Part of my original post was really out of frustration. Coming from another part of the Lehigh Valley, I did not expect to see the differences that I have seen.
It is also nice to know that I am not insane and that it is not only me that has these impressions.
I think people are just more guarded in this area than others, and it is something that is not uncommon in a small town.
People don't know my history, and they also don't know me. I have openned myself up and tried to make a difference from my side. But, this is a two way street.
The dialog is now out there, and if this causes one person to look inside themselves and try to act differently at newcomers as a new asset as opposed to interlopers, then I consider that first post a success.
In all, I just want to see Nazareth become a better community for ALL that chosen reside here, regardless if they have never left or if they just got here. If that happens, we could see OUR community prosper in ways we never thought of.
Diversity is the spice of life, and every piece of it brings its own unique benefits. We should embrace it.
Diversity is a good thing. I know Easton embraces theirs. I think the Greek festival is coming up in a few weeks and the Lebanese festival in August is a culinary and cultural event to be experienced.
I understand that, I was only referring to the few posts that opted to attack me or misstate what I've written (anon 2:32 and 10:54).
Every time the budget and taxes come up this issue arises. It should be discussed and I've heard it in conversation (not on this site, but actual person to person conversation) from both sides.
I don't have a problem discussing it and frankly, with roughly 24,000 people in the school district, we are probably only getting a small portion of the perceptions and opinions here.
My biggest thing and I've said it ad nauseum at this point, is that it is always easy to pick out flaws and shortcomings compared to doing something to fix the problem.
I want this site to be a place where people can get information as early as possible so they can act on it and be more involved. This will result in a better community.
I provide the forum to post information and comment on it, but in the end it is up to individuals to act upon it and only when they do that will we see change.
It won't be one person and it won't be overnight, but it is possible if people are willing.
Thanks for the comments.
Agree that this should be a topic of discussion in every home.
Will it be? I doubt it. But it only takes a small few to get the ball rolling.
As to giving a solution to the problem, I'm not sure where that would even start.
As I said earlier, this is a two way street, and there has to be give on both sides. I have, and will continue to make the effort towards my neighbors, only I would like it to come in the reverse direction as well. That is the hard part. You can't change a person's thinking. That they have to do for themselves.
One of the issues is the personal attacks, from both sides. That accomplishes absolutely nothing.
If you want to have your argument heard, doing it in a civil way as opposed to being in attack mode will get you a lot further. It is amazing how well this really works.
If adults put this into practice, it will also work its way down to our children, and you will see some of the issues in the schools start to go away as well.
I see a lot of neighborhoods in the area tearing themselves apart at the seems due to misunderstandings and really petty conflicts. We are one community, and we should start behaving like one.
As soon as you start drawing the lines of who is a native and who is an outsider, you have already split the community. And that is a hard thing to fix.
Hitting again on Nazareth's reputation outside of the area. Our petty wars are common knowledge to others. I was talking to an LVC coach from the other end of the valley over the weekend. He has heard about the problem parents in this community.
He admitted that he has some bad seeds in his area and there definitely are demands and expectations, but nothing like the meddlers and game players that exist here.
He tells his players at the beginning of the season that if your mommy or daddy talks to me about your playing time - you'll sit even more.
It sound draconian, but really ask your parents if their mom or dad ever talked to their high school coach in such a fashion and I bet the answer is no.
Back then you probably walked to practice and mom and dad definitely didn't hang around to watch.
Coaches were to be respected and not questioned. Is it any wonder that our kids have such bad attitudes and don't respect their coaches.
Is it a sign of the times (Yes)? Is it bad all over (Yes)? Is it worse here (Seems to be)?
I'm sure everyone could come up with bad and good examples of people they have come across in their towns, state, and other states... not saying it's bad or worse here, but I wanted to give a positive- I feel fortunate, as I live in a Nazareth neigborhood, where all the neighbors wave to each other everyday as we drive by (bushkill twp)- we stop and talk on walks, and even sometimes have neighborhood get togethers. Everyone is very friendly, and willing to lend a hand, even if we are not all "personal" friends- with the big Ivan flood, we had several people offer help and support while we pumped our basement out as fast as we could. And when I pick up my kids at Be Safe at the end of the day, the parents I see daily always offer a warm smile and some friendly conversation- even if we don't formally know each other's names- our kids give us something in common- I think life is alot about attitude, and maybe Ross does have on blue glasses, but I applaud him for that, because your perception of your community is often based on your attitude you start off with.... If you look for good rather than problems everyday, you may just find it.
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